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I love how people argue with scientific facts and call them nonsense. You can get a disease even if you have been vaccinated for it. It says it even on the vaccination packaging...and yet, people want to argue THAT. If you want to vaccinate, feel free, but why are you going to argue with something the drug company admits?
And by the way, A 3 inch long rusty nail win through my foot in Tennessee. I didn't get a tetanus shot and I am alive, no lockjaw. Got bit by a dog, no doctor, and no rabies. Stepped on glass and, I'm pretty sure, cut an artery. No doctor, no infection. I didn't even have medicine. I didn't even have a place to live! I had a rag tied around my foot, with that one. Long live soap and water.
Of course, everyone is not me. I may have a superior immune system (probably because I spent a very minimal amount of time with doctors and refused to take any medicine they gave me when I was little. That pink antibiotic was more likely to end up dumped on my head than in my mouth. So gross.)
Don't live in fear, and educate yourself. Make informed decisions.
#14 ::: Dave Bell ::: (view all by) :::February 20, 2009, 03:16 AM:
Yes,I read the Daily Mail article linked above. They're one of the papers who pimped the Autism scare.
And it's raging paranoia against people who haven't been vaccinated. Since the MMR vaccine didn't get used in the UK until 1988...
I look at Jim's list of diseases and wonder how come I'm still alive. Throw in this new paranoia with all the rest current in the UK and anyone over thirty is obviously a baby-raping plague-carrying pervert.#15 ::: Jim Macdonald ::: (view all by)::: February 20, 2009, 03:23 AM:
Shingles is caused by flare-up of herpes zoster, which is the same virus as chickenpox, Varicella zoster.
After you've had chickenpox, the virus never really goes away -- it lives along the nerve pathways in the body.
The next bit gets paradoxical:
Chicken pox vaccine associated with shingles epidemic
New research published in the International Journal of Toxicology (IJT) by Gary S. Goldman, Ph.D., reveals high rates of shingles (herpes zoster) in Americans since the government's 1995 recommendation that all children receive chicken pox vaccine.Goldman's research supports that shingles, which results in three times as many deaths and five times the number of hospitalizations as chicken pox, is suppressed naturally by occasional contact with chicken pox.
Dr. Goldman's findings have corroborated other independent researchers who estimate that if chickenpox were to be nearly eradicated by vaccination, the higher number of shingles cases could continue in the U.S. for up to 50 years; and that while death rates from chickenpox are already very low, any deaths prevented by vaccination will be offset by deaths from increasing shingles disease. Another recent peer-reviewed article authored by Dr. Goldman and published in Vaccine presents a cost-benefit analysis of the universal chicken pox (varicella) vaccination program. Goldman points out that during a 50-year time span, there would be an estimated additional 14.6 million (42%) shingles cases among adults aged less than 50 years, presenting society with a substantial additional medical cost burden of $4.1 billion. This translates into $80 million annually, utilizing an estimated mean healthcare provider cost of $280 per shingles case.
There's been some work with shingles vaccines or boosters for adults who had chickenpox as children, but that isn't final yet.#16 ::: Lee ::: (view all by) ::: February 20, 2009, 03:24 AM:
I don't think MMR was common (or perhaps not available) when I was a kid. I had measles, missed mumps and rubella, got the rubella vaccine at about age 14*, and actually had a (thankfully mild) attack of chicken pox in my early 30s, probably because my then-husband was a day-care teacher; anything that went around the center, he brought home. I'm also one of the slowly-vanishing number of people with an upper-arm scar from smallpox vaccination.
That guy who made up the connection between MMR and autism ought to be publicly skinned alive. He'll probably end up being responsible for more deaths than the Iraq War.
* I remember this very clearly, because by that time I knew about the danger of rubella in pregnant women, and I made special note to remember that I'd been vaccinated. At that time I still thought I'd eventually have children. #17 ::: geek anachronism ::: (view all by) ::: February 20, 2009, 03:25 AM:
My mother is a science nut, but also a hippie. So I got to live in hippie areas AND be vaccinated. Guess who ended up with rubella as a child? Luckily it was in the gap between my sister and I, although my mother did miscarry around that time. We get older and we move, to yet another hippie area, this time with a very low SES. This time it's my vaccinated fourteen year old sister who gets whooping cough. Which the local doctor refuses to diagnose as whooping cough because she is vaccinated (and she was also a terrible terrible doctor). So there's a month of my sister coughing until she vomits, then two months where she's terrified to eat because she might start coughing again. She lost about 15kg in this period - not of concern apparently, because all women want to be thin (have I mentioned how terrible this doctor was?) and 45kg wasn't dangerously underweight.
I also got chicken pox as a teen - I had always said it wasn't really a bad case. My mother overheard me saying that and was most puzzled. Turns out the five days we'd spent at my grandmother's house because I was too sick to leave didn't appear in my recollection - I was delirious for most of it. They had to bathe me. I only have one scar, but my mother spent five days bathing her thirteen-year old daughter.
It disturb me that the only recollection of the entire visit I have is of throwing egg and lettuce sandwiches out the window into the paddock.
My mother is only just now admitting that her beloved hippie small towns were not as healthy for us kids as she wanted to believe. Because when there's an epidemic, it ends up being bad for the immunocompromised (either by youth, or by a pre-existing issue).#18 ::: siriosa ::: (view all by) :::February 20, 2009, 03:27 AM:
(I was just this afternoon wondering when there'd be another of your fine posts. Thank you for this.)
When I was three, I was exposed to chicken pox on purpose. By adults. It was 1952. Was supposed to confer immunity. Nearly killed me.
Bright side, I have a corker of a near-death experience story to tell.#19 ::: Thomas ::: (view all by) :::February 20, 2009, 03:35 AM:
Rubella is an example of a negative form of herd immunity -- if everyone else is vaccinated you are ok without the vaccine, but if just most people are vaccinated you are a lot worse off.
As Jim says, rubella is pretty harmless in small children (I'm told I've had it, but I don't remember). If no-one is vaccinated then pretty much everyone gets it as a child. If, say, 2/3 of the population are vaccinated, the other 1/3 are still likely to get it, but it will take longer. As a result, moderate vaccination levels dramatically increase the risk of rubella in unvaccinated adults.
When I was a kid the policy in Australia was only to vaccinate girls, since the disease is only dangerous in pregnant women. Now everyone gets vaccinated, to get the herd immunity past the dangerous intermediate range.
The same problem with chickenpox was one of the issues debated when the vaccine was recently introduced.
#20 ::: Terry Karney ::: (view all by) :::February 20, 2009, 03:41 AM:
Polio has always confused me, not the disease, but the suddeness with which it left the minds of the population.
The fight against it was huge. The numbers affected by it also huge. And when it was gone, it was as if it had never been.
I have a smallpox vaccination scar. I was proud of it as a kid (one of the last. My sister (14 months my junior doesn't have one. She had some cold, and my mother was told to bring her back... and then they weren't doing it anymore).
When we were being prepped to go to Iraq they vaccinated everyone. Three pokes if you weren't previously vaccinated, 15 if you were.
Even with 15 pokes, I barely reacted.
I've had some hideous cough. As bad as whooping cough, but only for a couple of days. It was only the memory of that which made it possible for me to choke down the codeine cough syrup, and that only for a couple of days. If the cough came back (it didn't) I figured I could take the stuff.
I don't understand people who won't vaccinate, and I have a friend whose wife (a primary teacher) is 3/4s against them. I was asked what I thought about it (they have a child, just a year old now), and I said.. do it!
She was thinking of not doing it.#21 ::: Jim Macdonald ::: (view all by)::: February 20, 2009, 03:44 AM:
Measles vaccine has been available since 1963. MMR has been available since 1971.
Widespread vaccination against diphtheria started in 1941; after that incidence dropped to nearly zero.
Most of the time the immune system works as it's supposed to; either you don't show symptoms, or you do but you recover.
But before vaccination, well into the twentieth century, it was just accepted that dying was something that little kids did.#22 ::: Kimberly ::: (view all by) :::February 20, 2009, 03:53 AM:
I thought tetanus was every ten years? (Moot for me, I got my booster last year, but I may need to ask the spouse about his last one...)
I remember hearing about the 'vaccines cause autism!' scare around the time my son was born, nearly three years ago; whether there was a sudden flare up in scare activity or if it just came to attention because I was a new mom, I don't know. The husband and I wrote it off as bunk and followed the state's immunization schedule. It's reassuring to see we were right.
Just out of curiosity, and on the topic of vaccinations: is the requirement of two flu shots, administered a month apart, at some point between the ages of 18 months (may be 6 months, don't recall) and 8 years unique to South Dakota, or part of a broader standard?#23 ::: Emma ::: (view all by) :::February 20, 2009, 04:03 AM:
In Australia they've just instituted whooping cough (pertussis) boosters for 10 year olds and not a moment too soon. My fully immunised twin boys both caught it at 10, and while it was horrible for them, it was worse for my cousin's four month old who spent some weeks in hospital, after we gave it to him. The young doctor I consulted about the dreadful cough my boys had, didn't diagnose pertussis because she had never seen it. My aunt, who trained as a children's nurse in the '50s, recognised the cough immediately, but it had already spread to the half-immunised baby. The guilt was huge, though he came through it ok.
My boys had recurrent severe coughs every time they got a cold for several years. Pertussis is a really horrible disease, even when it doesn't kill you. Needless to say, I am a total immunisation nazi, and liable to rip the throats out of foolish anti-immunisation types who are hapless enough to cross my path.#24 ::: Tracey S. Rosenberg ::: (view all by) ::: February 20, 2009, 04:08 AM:
One thing that I never understood about the 'I don't have to vaccinate my kid because the other kids are vaccinated' argument: your kid may one day decide to travel, yes? To a place where these diseases are still active, and vaccinations are not yet widespread? (See: 1250 cases of chicken pox reported in Delhi in the first three months of 2008.)
Perhaps 'travel' is just not part of the mindset here.
Oh, and I concur with the thumbs up for Ben Goldacre. Thanks to him (though IIRC it was one of his readers who actually went after her), one of these 'I'm a doctor, honest, and so what if my institution is a PO Box' people had to stop using her 'title'.#25 ::: Chris ::: (view all by) ::: February 20, 2009, 04:08 AM:
I've had measles (twice), mumps, rubella and chicken pox (as an adult) and I can't understand any parent not vaccinating their children. Both of mine are getting everything that's available.
We don't vaccinate against chicken pox in the UK, but I wish we did. Looking after a scabby kid isn't a lot of fun.
My younger brother got whooping cough - there was a vaccine scare in the late 1970's so he was vaccinated - and that was pretty awful.
Re tetanus. The NHS advice is 10 years, or 5 if the wound is contaminated with manure.#26 ::: Sus ::: (view all by) ::: February 20, 2009, 04:24 AM:
*wild applause* Thank you, Jim, for putting this up here. Bookmarked, and will be used relentlessy to refute the 'autism, whaaaaa!' proponents.
I had both chicken pox and mumps as a child, and if I could go back in time and make them vaccinate me against those beforehand, I would.
Kimberley @22: I've learned that tetanus is every ten years, too. (In Germany, and in the UK.) Confusing.#27 ::: abi ::: (view all by) ::: February 20, 2009, 04:49 AM:
When I was small, one of the kids in the neighborhood got rubella. The mother threw a rubella party, to which I went. I'm now immune.
I have heard that the immunity to rubella from vaccination wears off after a time, but the Google results I'm getting are too heavily polluted by crackpots to be reliable. Does vaccination, with booster, confer the same level of immunity? (Translation: are my MMR-ified kids done?)
Chickenpox vaccination is a new one to me. The UK wasn't offering it when we lived there, but both kids caught it quite young.#28 ::: Tracey ::: (view all by) :::February 20, 2009, 04:57 AM:
I got chicken pox in 1989 when I was 27; a woman at work had a daughter, and that daughter went to a birthday party where the birthday girl was in the contagious stage. The daughter was mildly sick; the mother got headache and fever.
I caught it from the mother, and nearly died.
To make matters worse, I had a very old-fashioned doctor who didn't believe that hospitalization would help; after all, who knew how to treat chicken pox anymore? So I stayed home for a month, and battled my way through through delirium, 104-degree fever, ague, violent vomiting, sweating (and dehydration), total loss of balance (I was reduced to crawling around so that I didn't fall), swelling around the eyes, extreme photosensitivity, and painful, oozing sores on every part of my body. Including the eyelids.
It was even money whether I would die of the fever. There was a 35%-40% chance that my scratching the blisters would get them infected and that I'd get sick and die from complications from the infection; my immune system (which only works at 50% capacity at the BEST of times--thank you so much, genetic lymphedema tarda!) was shot, and I couldn't have fought off another disease. My doctor didn't even want to talk about the odds about my eyesight; all that he would say was that given the proximity of the sores to the eyes...well, the odds were not in my favor.
I would not put a kid--or an adult--through that month of hell for anything. And if I could go back in time and get the varicella vaccine before it came to America, believe me, I would.#29 ::: takuan ::: (view all by) :::February 20, 2009, 05:02 AM:
The medical books of two generations ago need to be republished. Especially the European ones. Every household had a copy of a guide to common ailments, usually lavishly illustrated with beautiful colour plates of the raddled skin of disease victims. You grow up sneaking THAT out of the bookcase and there is nothing subjective about why immunizing is a GOOD THING.
I imagine that those who have sat vigil over a mortally ill child take little stock in badly researched popular exposes of Evil Vaccine Conspiracies. I also note that bastardWakefield may stand trial yet.#30 ::: Niall McAuley ::: (view all by) :::February 20, 2009, 05:03 AM:
I had chicken pox as a child, I remember Camomile lotion and being given The Three Little Pigs Ladybird book to read, so I was about four. All three of my kids get all their jabs per the official schedule.
There was a recent flap about HPV vaccination for teenage girls. The Government planned a €30 million programme, but then ran out of cash and cancelled it. This reminds me that I must look into it: it's about €400 a pop privately, I believe.#31 ::: Anna Feruglio Dal Dan ::: (view all by) ::: February 20, 2009, 05:09 AM:
I had measles when I was seven, and had a lot of the consequences: otitis, pneumonia, and hot on the heels of that, maybe connected and maybe not, acute appendicitis hurrying towards peritonitis with the might of a thousand armies. I was born in 1966, but apparently the vaccination hadn't made it to Italy by the time I came down with it. I didn't hear of even the possibility of a vaccination throughout my childhood. People did rubella parties but they sure as hell didn't do measles parties - you were quarantined until the spots went away and for a long time afterwards.
I had the rubella inoculation because we were never sure if I had it or if it was something else.
I had chickenpox at 14. It was all shades of Really Not Fun, but at least it stopped there. My grannie had shingles when she was in her eighties. It was Not Fun and I am not looking forward to it.
My mom's cleaning lady came down with rubella in the first trimester. Back then, even good Catholic girls had abortions in that case, and nobody felt the need to complain about it. It was therapeutic abortion, not elective. But when she went to her gyn, he laughed paternally and said, "Come on, come on, you let yourself be scared for nothing, you'll a flower of a baby!"
She did. The baby was a blond, beautiful, sweet girl. She was also deaf, half-blind, retarded, with a congenital heart defect, and needed constant care and physiotherapy to walk. She must be an adult now, and I wonder what happened to her. Her mom fought full-time to give her a normal life, and I really hope that she succeeded.#32 ::: takuan ::: (view all by) :::February 20, 2009, 05:18 AM:
Ethics of vaccination: suppose your government covertly added this to your local supply. Would it be a good thing?#33 ::: David Goldfarb ::: (view all by)::: February 20, 2009, 05:31 AM:
Covertly adding any pharmaceutical to anything is a bad idea. The problem is the "covert", not necessarily the pharmaceutical.#34 ::: Debbie ::: (view all by) :::February 20, 2009, 05:45 AM:
They haven't particularly promoted the varicella vaccine in Germany, and while I'm generally all for vaccinations, I've hesitated with this one for my son. He's been exposed to chicken pox multiple times, but is 14 and still hasn't gotten it. I'm thinking it's probably worth it at this point, because the course seems worse the older you get. He would have a lingering risk of shingles whether he had chicken pox or got vaccinated, right? And fortunately insurance covers the HPV vacc, at least for girls, so I'm glad my daughter will be able to get that one. They even have public service spots promoting it.
Cases of measles are on the rise here -- parents either don't get their kids vaccinated at all, or neglect the booster shots. Two years ago, the incidence of new cases got so high in our county that kids were required to submit their vaccination booklets to the county health department. They stopped short of forced immunization, but threatened to exclude unvaccinated kids from school. I've never understood the mentality of being willing to risk the health or even life of someone else, by not vaccinating and potentially being a carrier.#35 ::: Thomas ::: (view all by) :::February 20, 2009, 06:01 AM:
Abi@27
I think it's still genuinely unknown how long the MMR immunity to rubella lasts.
There was a paper in 2000 by people from the Finnish National Public Health Institute looking at what had happened over the 17 years since MMR vaccination started. They found that after 17 years 1/3 of people vaccinated as infants had antibody levels below the threshold that is supposed to indicate reliable immunity (no-one who had had actual rubella had low antibody levels).
As far as I can tell it isn't known what the actual risk of rubella is for people who have some antibodies but less than the target amount.
It also isn't clear whether the people with low levels of antibodies never had very high levels or whether they declined over time. That is, did the vaccine not work or did it wear off over time?
A recent paper in the New England Journal of Medicine (free access - thanks, NIH) found that antibody levels decline very very slowly over time, but they had a mixture of people who had real infections and people who were vaccinated.#36 ::: Roxanne ::: (view all by) :::February 20, 2009, 06:02 AM:
Vaccinations are a gamble: Will the reduced chance of a future disease outweigh the chance of complications now? Everyone has to make the choice for themselves. No medical procedure - and that includes vaccination - should be required by law. Period. End of sentence.
One should choose one's vaccinations carefully, because there are some which cause serious side effects in some people. We don't hand out rabies vaccines or smallpox vaccines unless there's a reason to - and that should be the case with childhood diseases as well.#37 ::: takuan ::: (view all by) :::February 20, 2009, 06:13 AM:
Did I not read something, somewhen in whichcapsaicin was used as a remedy for shingles pain?#38 ::: takuan ::: (view all by) :::February 20, 2009, 06:16 AM:
ah yes:
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/health/2009/0217/1224241278308.html#39 ::: Giacomo ::: (view all by) :::February 20, 2009, 06:25 AM:
Roxanne, I'm sorry but you are wrong on "No medical procedure - and that includes vaccination - should be required by law".
The right of the human race to survive as a whole overrides the right of individuals to be careless. If an epidemic is endangering society as a whole, collective and democratic bodies have the right to impose vaccination. I think this thread made it quite clear.
It's a power which must carefully (and sparely) be used, but it's there. Because otherwise, under extreme circumstances, the mob will purge "individualists" in more cruel ways.#40 ::: Pendrift ::: (view all by) :::February 20, 2009, 06:25 AM:
We don't hand out rabies vaccines or smallpox vaccines unless there's a reason to.
It doesn't make much sense to give the general population the rabies vaccine, because of its mode of transmission, i.e. through bites. Obviously people who have frequent contact with animals should receive it. Ditto for smallpox - few people will actually be in a situation where exposure is possible.
The same does not hold true for the highly contagious childhood diseases listed above, where, in many cases, breathing or touching is all it takes to catch the bug - and spread it.#41 ::: Jim Macdonald ::: (view all by)::: February 20, 2009, 06:30 AM:
Will the reduced chance of a future disease outweigh the chance of complications now?
The answer is "yes."#42 ::: turtle ::: (view all by) :::February 20, 2009, 06:34 AM:
Hmmm... Two questions occurred to me as I was reading this thread...
1. I have a little white scar on my left arm, the circumference of about a pencil eraser or a bit smaller, that my mother told me was from "getting your baby shots". She also has two similar but larger scars, more like the size of a penny each, that she said were from the same thing. I asked about this when I was around five years old and haven't really thought about it until now, but it occurs to me now that the only other people I've seen with these are my sister, aunt, uncle, and one or two of my uncle's friends-- AKA people born after 1960 in the former USSR. (I don't know whether my grandparents have these scars.)
So: what was the difference between USSR and American vaccinations that caused this? We moved here when I was 14 months old, so that rules out only one or two vaccines as specific causes... Was it some kind of additive maybe, or really thick needles???
2. If the chicken pox vaccine was only approved in 1995, that means I had already entered the public school system and had all my required shots at least by the previous year. I am quite sure that I was never vaccinated for it later on... I don't mean to overreact, but how likely am I to get chicken pox as an adult?!#43 ::: Charlie Stross ::: (view all by) :::February 20, 2009, 06:38 AM:
I missed out on some of my childhood shots; specifically the TB and smallpox jabs that were still on the menu. I had really bad atopic eczema at the time, and the initial TB sensitivity test brought out a strong enough reaction that they decided to skip the vaccination -- and they skipped the smallpox shot at the same time. (It was 1974 or 1975, and by that time the writing was already on the wall for that particular virus: why risk an anaphylactic reaction?)
Weirdly, I managed to contract shingles when I was 13; the left side of my rib cage felt like the worst case of sunburn I'd ever had.#44 ::: Debbie ::: (view all by) :::February 20, 2009, 06:39 AM:
turtle @42 -- I have no idea if the likelihood changes with age, but adults can certainly catch it. My husband got it in his early 30's from our 6-yo nephew, and it was Not. Pleasant.#45 ::: turtle ::: (view all by) :::February 20, 2009, 06:48 AM:
Forgot to mention, I was born in 1990, so hopefully the obscure vaccination scars can't be too obscure...#46 ::: Juliet E McKenna ::: (view all by)::: February 20, 2009, 06:51 AM:
Chicken pox is definitely worse the older you get. Husband spent his 40th birthday in isolation on intravenous acyclovir in our local infectious diseases hospital after picking it up from our young children. He was going rapidly down the same route as Tracey@28 (Sympathies!)
He caught almost nothing as a kid - only rubella and scarlatina. His brother and cousins had the full set up to and including measles - so our doctor reckoned he would have had sub-clinical exposure sufficient to generate antibodies. Not in the case of that chicken pox.
We're setting about getting him an MMR vaccination coz measles/mumps in his 50s doesn't bear thinking about.
Our kids have had the full set of everything - even bearing in mind my own medical history does raise the possibilities of genuine* complications for them. We looked into all the numbers and details with our GP and concluded the risks of vaccination were still definitely less than the risks of the diseases.
*I'm another huge fan of Ben Goldacre, and want to see Andrew Wakefield prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. Seeing AW in a pillory being pelted with good old medieval midden refuse would suit me too.#47 ::: Chris Eagle ::: (view all by) :::February 20, 2009, 06:51 AM:
@40: The only people likely to be exposed to smallpox are workers in a couple of government laboratories, because smallpox isdead. Extinct in the wild for three decades now, thanks to vaccination. Hooray for humanity's one total victory in the fight against disease!#48 ::: Juliet E McKenna ::: (view all by)::: February 20, 2009, 06:53 AM:
By which I mean, our kids have had the full set of jabs.
Reading that back, I see that's not as clear as it might be. Apologies.#49 ::: Jim Macdonald ::: (view all by)::: February 20, 2009, 06:55 AM:
#42 I have a little white scar on my left arm, the circumference of about a pencil eraser or a bit smaller, that my mother told me was from "getting your baby shots".
Specifically, that's from the smallpox vaccine. I have one of those; so does everyone of my generation or older.
I used to think it was funny, watching sword-and-sandal movies, seeing the Romans gladiators with obvious smallpox vaccination scars.
You used to be able to get little plastic covers at the drug store to go over the blisters that formed from the vaccine blisters.#50 ::: Laura from Faraway ::: (view all by) ::: February 20, 2009, 06:59 AM:
De-lurking to add that if one might expect to have much contact with people in college, it's a good time to have one's pertussis vaccinations updated. They aren't lifelong, and it's rather frightening to see the rate at which they will sweep through a college community--- we would literally step over people who had collapsed in the hallways because they were too tired to crawl back to their dorm room--- and we were too tired to help them. I've been told anecdotally that one of the hallmarks of a whooping cough outbreak on campus is the denizens half-jokingly referring to it as "the Plague."#51 ::: Epacris ::: (view all by) :::February 20, 2009, 07:04 AM:
Roxanne @36 (& Jim D McD @41)
Will the reduced chance of a future disease outweigh the chance of complications now?
The answer is "yes."
I thought that was the point of the post.
As a child I remember TB vans around suburbs in Australia. Then it all vanished*. Now I hear tuberculosis infections have revived. Is there a summary of what's happened with it over the last 50-100 years?
* Excepting Aboriginal communities, generally ignored.#52 ::: Emily ::: (view all by) :::February 20, 2009, 07:05 AM:
Tetanus booster is every five years.
Sadly, in a lot of areas of the US, you have to fight to get it every 5 years. Often doctors will only give it if they think there's a reason manure might be in the wound... like you ride horses. Processing raw sheep's wool, playing with model airplane engines that get crashed into the ground and are filthy, hiking in remote areas, riding a bicycle off road... all sorts of perfectly normal activities tend to be ones where a 5 year cycle is wiser than not.
But you still get told every 10.
3 years left on mine.#53 ::: turtle ::: (view all by) :::February 20, 2009, 07:09 AM:
Jim @ #49: Aha! Thank you for resolving this little mystery!
But why did they think smallpox immunizations were still necessary in 1990 if it's been extinct that long?
Laura @ #50: That's a little scary, because something called The Plague is going around campus right now and I have it (along with, well, everyone)... but on the other hand I am not coughing nearly hard enough to break my ribs, and nobody is collapsing in the halls. I rather suspect it's just a bad cold coupled with the worse-than-a-preschool contagiousness of dorm life.#54 ::: Jim Macdonald ::: (view all by)::: February 20, 2009, 07:24 AM:
But why did they think smallpox immunizations were still necessary in 1990 if it's been extinct that long?
I got my last smallpox vaccination in 2002. It blistered up a little, but not as bad as I remember from the first time around.
As a health-care worker, front line in the War on Terror, this came in the post 9/11 preparedness.
I don't know when routine smallpox vaccination ended. Some time after the last case in the wild was reported.#55 ::: dcb ::: (view all by) ::: February 20, 2009, 07:24 AM:
Tetanus: Every 10 years (UK advice). Used to be recommended every five years, but the advice changed a while back - you might still be given a booster with a very dirty puncture wound if your last booster was more than five years ago.
Vaccines and herd immunity: Those with perfectly healthy, non-allergic children who won't have them vaccinated with MMR or whatever are not only denying protection to their own children but also to those who, for reasons of poor immune status or allergy, cannot be vaccinated. That is selfish, antisocial, dangerous behaviour just as much as getting in a car and driving it on the roads without training.
The whole anti-vaccination think makes me really cross sometimes - such a lack of understanding of science. Measels is on the rise again in the UK at the moment.
I was relatively lucky - I had measles and chickenpox as the "typical" childhood diseases - spots and not feeling so good, but nothing worse, and I had very mild mumps and subclinical rubella (my sister had it and I came up antibody positive when tested). I remember getting the oral polio vaccine on a bit of bread (my mother, a doctor, didn't coddle us with a lump of sugar!). I have the scars from other vaccines - BCG for example.
The memory of polio was still around in my childhood - maybe because my parents were doctors. #56 ::: Thomas ::: (view all by) :::February 20, 2009, 07:28 AM:
Jim@49
BCG vaccination (for TB) produces similar scars. I don't think the US did it, but Australia still did in the 1980s.
Epacris@51
TB was wiped out in some places but it always kept creeping in with migration from areas where it was common (which is why immigrants to lots of countries need to get chest x-rays). The problem is that lots of people who get it go into remission and look perfectly healthy until the infection reactivates years later.
There has been a real increase in rates over time, but there has also been a big increase in visibility. The interaction with HIV and the increase in drug resistance has made public-health types much more worried about TB, so there is more news than there used to be.
TB is still almost always treatable, but the second-line drugs aren't very nice and the treatment period is long. Fortunately there are finally some promising new drugs in development.
Incidentally, Larry Niven's story about a time machine and curing Heinlein's TB? A single-dose subcutaneous injection for TB is more plausible than a time machine, but not by a whole lot.#57 ::: Meg Thornton ::: (view all by) :::February 20, 2009, 07:41 AM:
I grew up in a family with a history on both sides of nursing. Both of my grandmothers were nurses, as was my mother, and two of my aunts (my mother's sister, and her sister-in-law). I can remember watching "I Can Jump Puddles" as a child (the story of Alan Marshall, who contracted polio at age six, shortly after starting school) and asking my mother about polio. She'd started her nursing career early enough (late 1950s) to remember the polio wards, and the way she described it made me very glad the disease had been pretty much eradicated by the time I was alive.
Other fun diseases my mother described for me were tetanus (did you know that the reason there used to be all those "quiet, hospital zone" signs on the roads was because one of the things which set off tetanic spasms was loud noise?); tuberculosis (they stopped testing for and immunising against that one while I was in primary school; this worried Mum because of her entire nursing class of about twenty mostly middle class young women, she was one of two people who came up negative for prior exposure to the tuberculosis bug. She thought I should get tested for it just in case); and various varieties of hepatitis (she had Hepatitis A as a teenager; the blood bank had a big black mark on her donor card for years as a result). From her midwifery textbooks (which were all written in about the 1940s) I learned about the effects of a lot of infectious diseases on both pregnant women and unborn children (essentially, if you have a high fever during the first 12 - 16 weeks of pregnancy, you can expect foetal abnormalities as par for the course) as well as the consequences of incompatible Rh factors, and various other bits and pieces.
One thing I've never ever had any problems with is the notion of vaccinations as a Good Thing overall.
Oh, and on the shingles thing - I've had chickenpox as a kid, and shingles as a teenager (would you believe it targeted the nerve just underneath the breast area? At that time I was a D-cup, and there is nothing quite like not being able to wear a bra when you're that size). About the only side effect it had was that the blood bank thought my blood was wonderful - I'd just turned 16, thus becoming eligible to donate, and they leapt at the chance to grab as much of my blood plasma as they could. So, if you have shingles or chicken pox, once you're over them, go see your local blood bank - they will literally think your blood is worth bottling.#58 ::: Ian Osmond ::: (view all by) :::February 20, 2009, 07:51 AM:
Wow. That thing you linked to in the beginning is . . . wow. REAL dumb.
So . . . 50% of tetanus cases were in the unimmunized, therefore tetanus immunizations are pointless.
Yeah, but when 90% of your population is immunized, that means that 50% of them happen in the other 10%, and 50% happen spread out in the OTHER 90%, so that you're 9 times safer if you have the shot.
People are stupid.#59 ::: Ian Osmond ::: (view all by) :::February 20, 2009, 07:51 AM:
Wow. That thing you linked to in the beginning is . . . wow. REAL dumb.
So . . . 50% of tetanus cases were in the unimmunized, therefore tetanus immunizations are pointless.
Yeah, but when 90% of your population is immunized, that means that 50% of them happen in the other 10%, and 50% happen spread out in the OTHER 90%, so that you're 9 times safer if you have the shot.
People are stupid.#60 ::: Bruce Cohen (SpeakerToManagers) ::: (view all by) :::February 20, 2009, 08:05 AM:
HPV is a classic case of a disease which could be eradicated relatively quickly given the current vaccine. The reason for wanting to eradicate it as quickly as possible is the link between HPV infection and cervical cancer. Example: the daughter of a friend of ours did not get vaccinated; by the time the vaccine was available she was over 18 and her parents didn't feel it appropriate to suggest it to her; she didn't consider it important, and her health insurance didn't cover it. Then she got HPV from her boyfriend, and not only has a significant likelihood of getting cancer later, but also has sufficient scarring that she's unlikely to be able to conceive a child, should she desire to.
The issue of HPV vaccination has gotten caught up in the culture wars here in the US. Because HPV is sexually-transmitted, the neoconservative zeitgeist for the last 8 years held that giving the vaccine was a tacit recommendation to have sex; you shouldn't give it to a girl under 18, and certainly not to a virgin (both categories being the ones least likely to have been infected before vaccination, and therefore the ones you mostwant to vaccinate). I'm hoping that the general disgust here at the excesses of the Bush era will result in a change in that attitude; we're facing an epidemic of STDs just now, and HPV is definitely among them.#61 ::: TexAnne ::: (view all by) :::February 20, 2009, 08:05 AM:
My mother told me about the way they used to drain swimming pools during polio scares. That impressed me almost as much as finding out why Itzhak Perlman uses crutches.#62 ::: Fragano Ledgister ::: (view all by) ::: February 20, 2009, 08:12 AM:
I was vaccinated against smallpox as a child, and against measles and rubella (the doctor who immunised me was a kindly old Polish man who gave me boiled sweets). I did catch mumps at ten. I caught chicken pox at 14; my brothers who went to a different school caught measles at the same time (we didn't get boosters, which is why), so we had a miserable couple of months in early 1971.
Because I was in a country undergoing a polio epidemic at the time, I was immunised against polio for the last time in 1982.
Some people in rural Jamaica during that epidemic were, however, suspicious. A rural correspondent for the newspaper for which I worked sent in a report -- which was, alas, spiked -- detailing the suspicions of the government immunisation programme in one rural community. Some men, it seems, believed that the immunisation was an underhanded attempt to sterilise the population, because polio only affected children (so why were adults getting the vaccine?) Their proof of this, as I recall, was 'a decline in their nature' following the administration of the vaccine. The correspondent had determined that the complainers were all 'smokers of grade-A ganja' and had subsequently increased their intake; as a result they had all attained 'stiff erections of the penis'.#63 ::: Fragano Ledgister ::: (view all by) ::: February 20, 2009, 08:16 AM:
Niall McAuley #30; Calamine lotion. Camomile is taken internally. Calamine lotion, apparently, is a placebo.#64 ::: inge ::: (view all by) ::: February 20, 2009, 08:20 AM:
abi: When I was small, one of the kids in the neighborhood got rubella. The mother threw a rubella party, to which I went. I'm now immune.
My mother said I got rubella twice: Once when I was four, once when I was eleven. So either something is not right here, or having it once does not necessarily confer immunity...#65 ::: Ginger ::: (view all by) :::February 20, 2009, 08:22 AM:
Jim Macdonald @3
Tetanus booster is every ten years. If you have an open wound and your last booster was 5 or more years ago, they will give you another. The vaccine protection has been shown to last as long as 12 years, but no one wants to take any chances when there's a wound with potential. Medline Plus
I am a CRS baby, and escaped with only hearing deficit (as far as I know...). I had mumps as a small child, chicken pox as a teenager (not fun), and mono as a 30-yr old (even less fun). I fall in between the polio generation and the MMR generation; I remember the fear that lingered in the community as polio faded from memory (and have the classic scar on my leg, not shoulder), and I recall very clearly when they started using MMR because I'd already had mumps.
As a veterinarian, I'm up to date on my tetanus and rabies. My last tetanus booster gave me a lovely case of vaccine reaction (fever a week after), but that's far better than having to deal with the toxin. I get my flu vaccine every year, as well; it's my small contribution to herd health.#66 ::: missmeg426 ::: (view all by) :::February 20, 2009, 08:25 AM:
I feel lucky that I was a child of the early 80's, because the whole MMR = autism thing hadn't come around yet, so I had the privilege of going to schools, daycares, and other places where every child was immunized, because the idea of not taking a kid to get their shots was unthinkable.
Let me tell you, living in a world where I didn't even know what measles, mumps, or rubella were because nobody got them? Was really nice.
Of course, we all got the chicken pox and I wish there'd been a vaccine for that back then, because if there had, at least it would have been in an era when parents would've had the common sense to make sure their kids got it. Seriously, I can't imagine a parent back then who - if for nothing else than not wanting to stay home with a miserable, sick kid - would not have marched their child right down to the doctor/Health Department and had it done the minute it became available.
Heck, I almost got disenrolled from high school just because I was a week late getting my booster shots (the ones you have to get around senior year, don't know if it's just TN law or other states have) from the Health Department because of scheduling problems.
It's too bad there's no legally acceptable way to prove where and from whom a child contracted a disease, because if there was, I would suggest suing the pants off of any family that didn't vaccinate their kids and caused another child to get sick.
But I also had a teacher in school who, because of polio, had an arm that was deformed and atrophied that she couldn't use and I've never forgotten that teacher.
I'm sure she'd have some choice words for any parent idiotic enough not to get their kids immunized.
I'm reminded of the episode of House where Dr. House tells the mother who doesn't want to vaccinate her kid exactly what happens when you don't. The "teeny tiny baby coffins" comment was just lovely.
I vote we have Dr. House go talk to these folks.
#14 ::: Dave Bell ::: (view all by) :::February 20, 2009, 03:16 AM:
Yes,I read the Daily Mail article linked above. They're one of the papers who pimped the Autism scare.
And it's raging paranoia against people who haven't been vaccinated. Since the MMR vaccine didn't get used in the UK until 1988...
I look at Jim's list of diseases and wonder how come I'm still alive. Throw in this new paranoia with all the rest current in the UK and anyone over thirty is obviously a baby-raping plague-carrying pervert.
Yes,I read the Daily Mail article linked above. They're one of the papers who pimped the Autism scare.
And it's raging paranoia against people who haven't been vaccinated. Since the MMR vaccine didn't get used in the UK until 1988...
I look at Jim's list of diseases and wonder how come I'm still alive. Throw in this new paranoia with all the rest current in the UK and anyone over thirty is obviously a baby-raping plague-carrying pervert.
#15 ::: Jim Macdonald ::: (view all by)::: February 20, 2009, 03:23 AM:
Shingles is caused by flare-up of herpes zoster, which is the same virus as chickenpox, Varicella zoster.
After you've had chickenpox, the virus never really goes away -- it lives along the nerve pathways in the body.
The next bit gets paradoxical:
Chicken pox vaccine associated with shingles epidemic
Shingles is caused by flare-up of herpes zoster, which is the same virus as chickenpox, Varicella zoster.
After you've had chickenpox, the virus never really goes away -- it lives along the nerve pathways in the body.
The next bit gets paradoxical:
Chicken pox vaccine associated with shingles epidemic
New research published in the International Journal of Toxicology (IJT) by Gary S. Goldman, Ph.D., reveals high rates of shingles (herpes zoster) in Americans since the government's 1995 recommendation that all children receive chicken pox vaccine.Goldman's research supports that shingles, which results in three times as many deaths and five times the number of hospitalizations as chicken pox, is suppressed naturally by occasional contact with chicken pox.There's been some work with shingles vaccines or boosters for adults who had chickenpox as children, but that isn't final yet.
Dr. Goldman's findings have corroborated other independent researchers who estimate that if chickenpox were to be nearly eradicated by vaccination, the higher number of shingles cases could continue in the U.S. for up to 50 years; and that while death rates from chickenpox are already very low, any deaths prevented by vaccination will be offset by deaths from increasing shingles disease. Another recent peer-reviewed article authored by Dr. Goldman and published in Vaccine presents a cost-benefit analysis of the universal chicken pox (varicella) vaccination program. Goldman points out that during a 50-year time span, there would be an estimated additional 14.6 million (42%) shingles cases among adults aged less than 50 years, presenting society with a substantial additional medical cost burden of $4.1 billion. This translates into $80 million annually, utilizing an estimated mean healthcare provider cost of $280 per shingles case.
#16 ::: Lee ::: (view all by) ::: February 20, 2009, 03:24 AM:
I don't think MMR was common (or perhaps not available) when I was a kid. I had measles, missed mumps and rubella, got the rubella vaccine at about age 14*, and actually had a (thankfully mild) attack of chicken pox in my early 30s, probably because my then-husband was a day-care teacher; anything that went around the center, he brought home. I'm also one of the slowly-vanishing number of people with an upper-arm scar from smallpox vaccination.
That guy who made up the connection between MMR and autism ought to be publicly skinned alive. He'll probably end up being responsible for more deaths than the Iraq War.
* I remember this very clearly, because by that time I knew about the danger of rubella in pregnant women, and I made special note to remember that I'd been vaccinated. At that time I still thought I'd eventually have children.
I don't think MMR was common (or perhaps not available) when I was a kid. I had measles, missed mumps and rubella, got the rubella vaccine at about age 14*, and actually had a (thankfully mild) attack of chicken pox in my early 30s, probably because my then-husband was a day-care teacher; anything that went around the center, he brought home. I'm also one of the slowly-vanishing number of people with an upper-arm scar from smallpox vaccination.
That guy who made up the connection between MMR and autism ought to be publicly skinned alive. He'll probably end up being responsible for more deaths than the Iraq War.
* I remember this very clearly, because by that time I knew about the danger of rubella in pregnant women, and I made special note to remember that I'd been vaccinated. At that time I still thought I'd eventually have children.
#17 ::: geek anachronism ::: (view all by) ::: February 20, 2009, 03:25 AM:
My mother is a science nut, but also a hippie. So I got to live in hippie areas AND be vaccinated. Guess who ended up with rubella as a child? Luckily it was in the gap between my sister and I, although my mother did miscarry around that time. We get older and we move, to yet another hippie area, this time with a very low SES. This time it's my vaccinated fourteen year old sister who gets whooping cough. Which the local doctor refuses to diagnose as whooping cough because she is vaccinated (and she was also a terrible terrible doctor). So there's a month of my sister coughing until she vomits, then two months where she's terrified to eat because she might start coughing again. She lost about 15kg in this period - not of concern apparently, because all women want to be thin (have I mentioned how terrible this doctor was?) and 45kg wasn't dangerously underweight.
I also got chicken pox as a teen - I had always said it wasn't really a bad case. My mother overheard me saying that and was most puzzled. Turns out the five days we'd spent at my grandmother's house because I was too sick to leave didn't appear in my recollection - I was delirious for most of it. They had to bathe me. I only have one scar, but my mother spent five days bathing her thirteen-year old daughter.
It disturb me that the only recollection of the entire visit I have is of throwing egg and lettuce sandwiches out the window into the paddock.
My mother is only just now admitting that her beloved hippie small towns were not as healthy for us kids as she wanted to believe. Because when there's an epidemic, it ends up being bad for the immunocompromised (either by youth, or by a pre-existing issue).
My mother is a science nut, but also a hippie. So I got to live in hippie areas AND be vaccinated. Guess who ended up with rubella as a child? Luckily it was in the gap between my sister and I, although my mother did miscarry around that time. We get older and we move, to yet another hippie area, this time with a very low SES. This time it's my vaccinated fourteen year old sister who gets whooping cough. Which the local doctor refuses to diagnose as whooping cough because she is vaccinated (and she was also a terrible terrible doctor). So there's a month of my sister coughing until she vomits, then two months where she's terrified to eat because she might start coughing again. She lost about 15kg in this period - not of concern apparently, because all women want to be thin (have I mentioned how terrible this doctor was?) and 45kg wasn't dangerously underweight.
I also got chicken pox as a teen - I had always said it wasn't really a bad case. My mother overheard me saying that and was most puzzled. Turns out the five days we'd spent at my grandmother's house because I was too sick to leave didn't appear in my recollection - I was delirious for most of it. They had to bathe me. I only have one scar, but my mother spent five days bathing her thirteen-year old daughter.
It disturb me that the only recollection of the entire visit I have is of throwing egg and lettuce sandwiches out the window into the paddock.
My mother is only just now admitting that her beloved hippie small towns were not as healthy for us kids as she wanted to believe. Because when there's an epidemic, it ends up being bad for the immunocompromised (either by youth, or by a pre-existing issue).
#18 ::: siriosa ::: (view all by) :::February 20, 2009, 03:27 AM:
(I was just this afternoon wondering when there'd be another of your fine posts. Thank you for this.)
When I was three, I was exposed to chicken pox on purpose. By adults. It was 1952. Was supposed to confer immunity. Nearly killed me.
Bright side, I have a corker of a near-death experience story to tell.
(I was just this afternoon wondering when there'd be another of your fine posts. Thank you for this.)
When I was three, I was exposed to chicken pox on purpose. By adults. It was 1952. Was supposed to confer immunity. Nearly killed me.
Bright side, I have a corker of a near-death experience story to tell.
#19 ::: Thomas ::: (view all by) :::February 20, 2009, 03:35 AM:
Rubella is an example of a negative form of herd immunity -- if everyone else is vaccinated you are ok without the vaccine, but if just most people are vaccinated you are a lot worse off.
As Jim says, rubella is pretty harmless in small children (I'm told I've had it, but I don't remember). If no-one is vaccinated then pretty much everyone gets it as a child. If, say, 2/3 of the population are vaccinated, the other 1/3 are still likely to get it, but it will take longer. As a result, moderate vaccination levels dramatically increase the risk of rubella in unvaccinated adults.
When I was a kid the policy in Australia was only to vaccinate girls, since the disease is only dangerous in pregnant women. Now everyone gets vaccinated, to get the herd immunity past the dangerous intermediate range.
The same problem with chickenpox was one of the issues debated when the vaccine was recently introduced.
Rubella is an example of a negative form of herd immunity -- if everyone else is vaccinated you are ok without the vaccine, but if just most people are vaccinated you are a lot worse off.
As Jim says, rubella is pretty harmless in small children (I'm told I've had it, but I don't remember). If no-one is vaccinated then pretty much everyone gets it as a child. If, say, 2/3 of the population are vaccinated, the other 1/3 are still likely to get it, but it will take longer. As a result, moderate vaccination levels dramatically increase the risk of rubella in unvaccinated adults.
When I was a kid the policy in Australia was only to vaccinate girls, since the disease is only dangerous in pregnant women. Now everyone gets vaccinated, to get the herd immunity past the dangerous intermediate range.
The same problem with chickenpox was one of the issues debated when the vaccine was recently introduced.
#20 ::: Terry Karney ::: (view all by) :::February 20, 2009, 03:41 AM:
Polio has always confused me, not the disease, but the suddeness with which it left the minds of the population.
The fight against it was huge. The numbers affected by it also huge. And when it was gone, it was as if it had never been.
I have a smallpox vaccination scar. I was proud of it as a kid (one of the last. My sister (14 months my junior doesn't have one. She had some cold, and my mother was told to bring her back... and then they weren't doing it anymore).
When we were being prepped to go to Iraq they vaccinated everyone. Three pokes if you weren't previously vaccinated, 15 if you were.
Even with 15 pokes, I barely reacted.
I've had some hideous cough. As bad as whooping cough, but only for a couple of days. It was only the memory of that which made it possible for me to choke down the codeine cough syrup, and that only for a couple of days. If the cough came back (it didn't) I figured I could take the stuff.
I don't understand people who won't vaccinate, and I have a friend whose wife (a primary teacher) is 3/4s against them. I was asked what I thought about it (they have a child, just a year old now), and I said.. do it!
She was thinking of not doing it.
Polio has always confused me, not the disease, but the suddeness with which it left the minds of the population.
The fight against it was huge. The numbers affected by it also huge. And when it was gone, it was as if it had never been.
I have a smallpox vaccination scar. I was proud of it as a kid (one of the last. My sister (14 months my junior doesn't have one. She had some cold, and my mother was told to bring her back... and then they weren't doing it anymore).
When we were being prepped to go to Iraq they vaccinated everyone. Three pokes if you weren't previously vaccinated, 15 if you were.
Even with 15 pokes, I barely reacted.
I've had some hideous cough. As bad as whooping cough, but only for a couple of days. It was only the memory of that which made it possible for me to choke down the codeine cough syrup, and that only for a couple of days. If the cough came back (it didn't) I figured I could take the stuff.
I don't understand people who won't vaccinate, and I have a friend whose wife (a primary teacher) is 3/4s against them. I was asked what I thought about it (they have a child, just a year old now), and I said.. do it!
She was thinking of not doing it.
#21 ::: Jim Macdonald ::: (view all by)::: February 20, 2009, 03:44 AM:
Measles vaccine has been available since 1963. MMR has been available since 1971.
Widespread vaccination against diphtheria started in 1941; after that incidence dropped to nearly zero.
Most of the time the immune system works as it's supposed to; either you don't show symptoms, or you do but you recover.
But before vaccination, well into the twentieth century, it was just accepted that dying was something that little kids did.
Measles vaccine has been available since 1963. MMR has been available since 1971.
Widespread vaccination against diphtheria started in 1941; after that incidence dropped to nearly zero.
Most of the time the immune system works as it's supposed to; either you don't show symptoms, or you do but you recover.
But before vaccination, well into the twentieth century, it was just accepted that dying was something that little kids did.
#22 ::: Kimberly ::: (view all by) :::February 20, 2009, 03:53 AM:
I thought tetanus was every ten years? (Moot for me, I got my booster last year, but I may need to ask the spouse about his last one...)
I remember hearing about the 'vaccines cause autism!' scare around the time my son was born, nearly three years ago; whether there was a sudden flare up in scare activity or if it just came to attention because I was a new mom, I don't know. The husband and I wrote it off as bunk and followed the state's immunization schedule. It's reassuring to see we were right.
Just out of curiosity, and on the topic of vaccinations: is the requirement of two flu shots, administered a month apart, at some point between the ages of 18 months (may be 6 months, don't recall) and 8 years unique to South Dakota, or part of a broader standard?
I thought tetanus was every ten years? (Moot for me, I got my booster last year, but I may need to ask the spouse about his last one...)
I remember hearing about the 'vaccines cause autism!' scare around the time my son was born, nearly three years ago; whether there was a sudden flare up in scare activity or if it just came to attention because I was a new mom, I don't know. The husband and I wrote it off as bunk and followed the state's immunization schedule. It's reassuring to see we were right.
Just out of curiosity, and on the topic of vaccinations: is the requirement of two flu shots, administered a month apart, at some point between the ages of 18 months (may be 6 months, don't recall) and 8 years unique to South Dakota, or part of a broader standard?
#23 ::: Emma ::: (view all by) :::February 20, 2009, 04:03 AM:
In Australia they've just instituted whooping cough (pertussis) boosters for 10 year olds and not a moment too soon. My fully immunised twin boys both caught it at 10, and while it was horrible for them, it was worse for my cousin's four month old who spent some weeks in hospital, after we gave it to him. The young doctor I consulted about the dreadful cough my boys had, didn't diagnose pertussis because she had never seen it. My aunt, who trained as a children's nurse in the '50s, recognised the cough immediately, but it had already spread to the half-immunised baby. The guilt was huge, though he came through it ok.
My boys had recurrent severe coughs every time they got a cold for several years. Pertussis is a really horrible disease, even when it doesn't kill you. Needless to say, I am a total immunisation nazi, and liable to rip the throats out of foolish anti-immunisation types who are hapless enough to cross my path.
In Australia they've just instituted whooping cough (pertussis) boosters for 10 year olds and not a moment too soon. My fully immunised twin boys both caught it at 10, and while it was horrible for them, it was worse for my cousin's four month old who spent some weeks in hospital, after we gave it to him. The young doctor I consulted about the dreadful cough my boys had, didn't diagnose pertussis because she had never seen it. My aunt, who trained as a children's nurse in the '50s, recognised the cough immediately, but it had already spread to the half-immunised baby. The guilt was huge, though he came through it ok.
My boys had recurrent severe coughs every time they got a cold for several years. Pertussis is a really horrible disease, even when it doesn't kill you. Needless to say, I am a total immunisation nazi, and liable to rip the throats out of foolish anti-immunisation types who are hapless enough to cross my path.
#24 ::: Tracey S. Rosenberg ::: (view all by) ::: February 20, 2009, 04:08 AM:
One thing that I never understood about the 'I don't have to vaccinate my kid because the other kids are vaccinated' argument: your kid may one day decide to travel, yes? To a place where these diseases are still active, and vaccinations are not yet widespread? (See: 1250 cases of chicken pox reported in Delhi in the first three months of 2008.)
Perhaps 'travel' is just not part of the mindset here.
Oh, and I concur with the thumbs up for Ben Goldacre. Thanks to him (though IIRC it was one of his readers who actually went after her), one of these 'I'm a doctor, honest, and so what if my institution is a PO Box' people had to stop using her 'title'.
One thing that I never understood about the 'I don't have to vaccinate my kid because the other kids are vaccinated' argument: your kid may one day decide to travel, yes? To a place where these diseases are still active, and vaccinations are not yet widespread? (See: 1250 cases of chicken pox reported in Delhi in the first three months of 2008.)
Perhaps 'travel' is just not part of the mindset here.
Oh, and I concur with the thumbs up for Ben Goldacre. Thanks to him (though IIRC it was one of his readers who actually went after her), one of these 'I'm a doctor, honest, and so what if my institution is a PO Box' people had to stop using her 'title'.
#25 ::: Chris ::: (view all by) ::: February 20, 2009, 04:08 AM:
I've had measles (twice), mumps, rubella and chicken pox (as an adult) and I can't understand any parent not vaccinating their children. Both of mine are getting everything that's available.
We don't vaccinate against chicken pox in the UK, but I wish we did. Looking after a scabby kid isn't a lot of fun.
My younger brother got whooping cough - there was a vaccine scare in the late 1970's so he was vaccinated - and that was pretty awful.
Re tetanus. The NHS advice is 10 years, or 5 if the wound is contaminated with manure.
I've had measles (twice), mumps, rubella and chicken pox (as an adult) and I can't understand any parent not vaccinating their children. Both of mine are getting everything that's available.
We don't vaccinate against chicken pox in the UK, but I wish we did. Looking after a scabby kid isn't a lot of fun.
My younger brother got whooping cough - there was a vaccine scare in the late 1970's so he was vaccinated - and that was pretty awful.
Re tetanus. The NHS advice is 10 years, or 5 if the wound is contaminated with manure.
#26 ::: Sus ::: (view all by) ::: February 20, 2009, 04:24 AM:
*wild applause* Thank you, Jim, for putting this up here. Bookmarked, and will be used relentlessy to refute the 'autism, whaaaaa!' proponents.
I had both chicken pox and mumps as a child, and if I could go back in time and make them vaccinate me against those beforehand, I would.
Kimberley @22: I've learned that tetanus is every ten years, too. (In Germany, and in the UK.) Confusing.
*wild applause* Thank you, Jim, for putting this up here. Bookmarked, and will be used relentlessy to refute the 'autism, whaaaaa!' proponents.
I had both chicken pox and mumps as a child, and if I could go back in time and make them vaccinate me against those beforehand, I would.
Kimberley @22: I've learned that tetanus is every ten years, too. (In Germany, and in the UK.) Confusing.
#27 ::: abi ::: (view all by) ::: February 20, 2009, 04:49 AM:
When I was small, one of the kids in the neighborhood got rubella. The mother threw a rubella party, to which I went. I'm now immune.
I have heard that the immunity to rubella from vaccination wears off after a time, but the Google results I'm getting are too heavily polluted by crackpots to be reliable. Does vaccination, with booster, confer the same level of immunity? (Translation: are my MMR-ified kids done?)
Chickenpox vaccination is a new one to me. The UK wasn't offering it when we lived there, but both kids caught it quite young.
When I was small, one of the kids in the neighborhood got rubella. The mother threw a rubella party, to which I went. I'm now immune.
I have heard that the immunity to rubella from vaccination wears off after a time, but the Google results I'm getting are too heavily polluted by crackpots to be reliable. Does vaccination, with booster, confer the same level of immunity? (Translation: are my MMR-ified kids done?)
Chickenpox vaccination is a new one to me. The UK wasn't offering it when we lived there, but both kids caught it quite young.
#28 ::: Tracey ::: (view all by) :::February 20, 2009, 04:57 AM:
I got chicken pox in 1989 when I was 27; a woman at work had a daughter, and that daughter went to a birthday party where the birthday girl was in the contagious stage. The daughter was mildly sick; the mother got headache and fever.
I caught it from the mother, and nearly died.
To make matters worse, I had a very old-fashioned doctor who didn't believe that hospitalization would help; after all, who knew how to treat chicken pox anymore? So I stayed home for a month, and battled my way through through delirium, 104-degree fever, ague, violent vomiting, sweating (and dehydration), total loss of balance (I was reduced to crawling around so that I didn't fall), swelling around the eyes, extreme photosensitivity, and painful, oozing sores on every part of my body. Including the eyelids.
It was even money whether I would die of the fever. There was a 35%-40% chance that my scratching the blisters would get them infected and that I'd get sick and die from complications from the infection; my immune system (which only works at 50% capacity at the BEST of times--thank you so much, genetic lymphedema tarda!) was shot, and I couldn't have fought off another disease. My doctor didn't even want to talk about the odds about my eyesight; all that he would say was that given the proximity of the sores to the eyes...well, the odds were not in my favor.
I would not put a kid--or an adult--through that month of hell for anything. And if I could go back in time and get the varicella vaccine before it came to America, believe me, I would.
I got chicken pox in 1989 when I was 27; a woman at work had a daughter, and that daughter went to a birthday party where the birthday girl was in the contagious stage. The daughter was mildly sick; the mother got headache and fever.
I caught it from the mother, and nearly died.
To make matters worse, I had a very old-fashioned doctor who didn't believe that hospitalization would help; after all, who knew how to treat chicken pox anymore? So I stayed home for a month, and battled my way through through delirium, 104-degree fever, ague, violent vomiting, sweating (and dehydration), total loss of balance (I was reduced to crawling around so that I didn't fall), swelling around the eyes, extreme photosensitivity, and painful, oozing sores on every part of my body. Including the eyelids.
It was even money whether I would die of the fever. There was a 35%-40% chance that my scratching the blisters would get them infected and that I'd get sick and die from complications from the infection; my immune system (which only works at 50% capacity at the BEST of times--thank you so much, genetic lymphedema tarda!) was shot, and I couldn't have fought off another disease. My doctor didn't even want to talk about the odds about my eyesight; all that he would say was that given the proximity of the sores to the eyes...well, the odds were not in my favor.
I would not put a kid--or an adult--through that month of hell for anything. And if I could go back in time and get the varicella vaccine before it came to America, believe me, I would.
#29 ::: takuan ::: (view all by) :::February 20, 2009, 05:02 AM:
The medical books of two generations ago need to be republished. Especially the European ones. Every household had a copy of a guide to common ailments, usually lavishly illustrated with beautiful colour plates of the raddled skin of disease victims. You grow up sneaking THAT out of the bookcase and there is nothing subjective about why immunizing is a GOOD THING.
I imagine that those who have sat vigil over a mortally ill child take little stock in badly researched popular exposes of Evil Vaccine Conspiracies. I also note that bastardWakefield may stand trial yet.
The medical books of two generations ago need to be republished. Especially the European ones. Every household had a copy of a guide to common ailments, usually lavishly illustrated with beautiful colour plates of the raddled skin of disease victims. You grow up sneaking THAT out of the bookcase and there is nothing subjective about why immunizing is a GOOD THING.
I imagine that those who have sat vigil over a mortally ill child take little stock in badly researched popular exposes of Evil Vaccine Conspiracies. I also note that bastardWakefield may stand trial yet.
#30 ::: Niall McAuley ::: (view all by) :::February 20, 2009, 05:03 AM:
I had chicken pox as a child, I remember Camomile lotion and being given The Three Little Pigs Ladybird book to read, so I was about four. All three of my kids get all their jabs per the official schedule.
There was a recent flap about HPV vaccination for teenage girls. The Government planned a €30 million programme, but then ran out of cash and cancelled it. This reminds me that I must look into it: it's about €400 a pop privately, I believe.
I had chicken pox as a child, I remember Camomile lotion and being given The Three Little Pigs Ladybird book to read, so I was about four. All three of my kids get all their jabs per the official schedule.
There was a recent flap about HPV vaccination for teenage girls. The Government planned a €30 million programme, but then ran out of cash and cancelled it. This reminds me that I must look into it: it's about €400 a pop privately, I believe.
#31 ::: Anna Feruglio Dal Dan ::: (view all by) ::: February 20, 2009, 05:09 AM:
I had measles when I was seven, and had a lot of the consequences: otitis, pneumonia, and hot on the heels of that, maybe connected and maybe not, acute appendicitis hurrying towards peritonitis with the might of a thousand armies. I was born in 1966, but apparently the vaccination hadn't made it to Italy by the time I came down with it. I didn't hear of even the possibility of a vaccination throughout my childhood. People did rubella parties but they sure as hell didn't do measles parties - you were quarantined until the spots went away and for a long time afterwards.
I had the rubella inoculation because we were never sure if I had it or if it was something else.
I had chickenpox at 14. It was all shades of Really Not Fun, but at least it stopped there. My grannie had shingles when she was in her eighties. It was Not Fun and I am not looking forward to it.
My mom's cleaning lady came down with rubella in the first trimester. Back then, even good Catholic girls had abortions in that case, and nobody felt the need to complain about it. It was therapeutic abortion, not elective. But when she went to her gyn, he laughed paternally and said, "Come on, come on, you let yourself be scared for nothing, you'll a flower of a baby!"
She did. The baby was a blond, beautiful, sweet girl. She was also deaf, half-blind, retarded, with a congenital heart defect, and needed constant care and physiotherapy to walk. She must be an adult now, and I wonder what happened to her. Her mom fought full-time to give her a normal life, and I really hope that she succeeded.
I had measles when I was seven, and had a lot of the consequences: otitis, pneumonia, and hot on the heels of that, maybe connected and maybe not, acute appendicitis hurrying towards peritonitis with the might of a thousand armies. I was born in 1966, but apparently the vaccination hadn't made it to Italy by the time I came down with it. I didn't hear of even the possibility of a vaccination throughout my childhood. People did rubella parties but they sure as hell didn't do measles parties - you were quarantined until the spots went away and for a long time afterwards.
I had the rubella inoculation because we were never sure if I had it or if it was something else.
I had chickenpox at 14. It was all shades of Really Not Fun, but at least it stopped there. My grannie had shingles when she was in her eighties. It was Not Fun and I am not looking forward to it.
My mom's cleaning lady came down with rubella in the first trimester. Back then, even good Catholic girls had abortions in that case, and nobody felt the need to complain about it. It was therapeutic abortion, not elective. But when she went to her gyn, he laughed paternally and said, "Come on, come on, you let yourself be scared for nothing, you'll a flower of a baby!"
She did. The baby was a blond, beautiful, sweet girl. She was also deaf, half-blind, retarded, with a congenital heart defect, and needed constant care and physiotherapy to walk. She must be an adult now, and I wonder what happened to her. Her mom fought full-time to give her a normal life, and I really hope that she succeeded.
#32 ::: takuan ::: (view all by) :::February 20, 2009, 05:18 AM:
Ethics of vaccination: suppose your government covertly added this to your local supply. Would it be a good thing?
Ethics of vaccination: suppose your government covertly added this to your local supply. Would it be a good thing?
#33 ::: David Goldfarb ::: (view all by)::: February 20, 2009, 05:31 AM:
Covertly adding any pharmaceutical to anything is a bad idea. The problem is the "covert", not necessarily the pharmaceutical.
Covertly adding any pharmaceutical to anything is a bad idea. The problem is the "covert", not necessarily the pharmaceutical.
#34 ::: Debbie ::: (view all by) :::February 20, 2009, 05:45 AM:
They haven't particularly promoted the varicella vaccine in Germany, and while I'm generally all for vaccinations, I've hesitated with this one for my son. He's been exposed to chicken pox multiple times, but is 14 and still hasn't gotten it. I'm thinking it's probably worth it at this point, because the course seems worse the older you get. He would have a lingering risk of shingles whether he had chicken pox or got vaccinated, right? And fortunately insurance covers the HPV vacc, at least for girls, so I'm glad my daughter will be able to get that one. They even have public service spots promoting it.
Cases of measles are on the rise here -- parents either don't get their kids vaccinated at all, or neglect the booster shots. Two years ago, the incidence of new cases got so high in our county that kids were required to submit their vaccination booklets to the county health department. They stopped short of forced immunization, but threatened to exclude unvaccinated kids from school. I've never understood the mentality of being willing to risk the health or even life of someone else, by not vaccinating and potentially being a carrier.
They haven't particularly promoted the varicella vaccine in Germany, and while I'm generally all for vaccinations, I've hesitated with this one for my son. He's been exposed to chicken pox multiple times, but is 14 and still hasn't gotten it. I'm thinking it's probably worth it at this point, because the course seems worse the older you get. He would have a lingering risk of shingles whether he had chicken pox or got vaccinated, right? And fortunately insurance covers the HPV vacc, at least for girls, so I'm glad my daughter will be able to get that one. They even have public service spots promoting it.
Cases of measles are on the rise here -- parents either don't get their kids vaccinated at all, or neglect the booster shots. Two years ago, the incidence of new cases got so high in our county that kids were required to submit their vaccination booklets to the county health department. They stopped short of forced immunization, but threatened to exclude unvaccinated kids from school. I've never understood the mentality of being willing to risk the health or even life of someone else, by not vaccinating and potentially being a carrier.
#35 ::: Thomas ::: (view all by) :::February 20, 2009, 06:01 AM:
Abi@27
I think it's still genuinely unknown how long the MMR immunity to rubella lasts.
There was a paper in 2000 by people from the Finnish National Public Health Institute looking at what had happened over the 17 years since MMR vaccination started. They found that after 17 years 1/3 of people vaccinated as infants had antibody levels below the threshold that is supposed to indicate reliable immunity (no-one who had had actual rubella had low antibody levels).
As far as I can tell it isn't known what the actual risk of rubella is for people who have some antibodies but less than the target amount.
It also isn't clear whether the people with low levels of antibodies never had very high levels or whether they declined over time. That is, did the vaccine not work or did it wear off over time?
A recent paper in the New England Journal of Medicine (free access - thanks, NIH) found that antibody levels decline very very slowly over time, but they had a mixture of people who had real infections and people who were vaccinated.
Abi@27
I think it's still genuinely unknown how long the MMR immunity to rubella lasts.
There was a paper in 2000 by people from the Finnish National Public Health Institute looking at what had happened over the 17 years since MMR vaccination started. They found that after 17 years 1/3 of people vaccinated as infants had antibody levels below the threshold that is supposed to indicate reliable immunity (no-one who had had actual rubella had low antibody levels).
As far as I can tell it isn't known what the actual risk of rubella is for people who have some antibodies but less than the target amount.
It also isn't clear whether the people with low levels of antibodies never had very high levels or whether they declined over time. That is, did the vaccine not work or did it wear off over time?
A recent paper in the New England Journal of Medicine (free access - thanks, NIH) found that antibody levels decline very very slowly over time, but they had a mixture of people who had real infections and people who were vaccinated.
#36 ::: Roxanne ::: (view all by) :::February 20, 2009, 06:02 AM:
Vaccinations are a gamble: Will the reduced chance of a future disease outweigh the chance of complications now? Everyone has to make the choice for themselves. No medical procedure - and that includes vaccination - should be required by law. Period. End of sentence.
One should choose one's vaccinations carefully, because there are some which cause serious side effects in some people. We don't hand out rabies vaccines or smallpox vaccines unless there's a reason to - and that should be the case with childhood diseases as well.
Vaccinations are a gamble: Will the reduced chance of a future disease outweigh the chance of complications now? Everyone has to make the choice for themselves. No medical procedure - and that includes vaccination - should be required by law. Period. End of sentence.
One should choose one's vaccinations carefully, because there are some which cause serious side effects in some people. We don't hand out rabies vaccines or smallpox vaccines unless there's a reason to - and that should be the case with childhood diseases as well.
#37 ::: takuan ::: (view all by) :::February 20, 2009, 06:13 AM:
Did I not read something, somewhen in whichcapsaicin was used as a remedy for shingles pain?
Did I not read something, somewhen in whichcapsaicin was used as a remedy for shingles pain?
#38 ::: takuan ::: (view all by) :::February 20, 2009, 06:16 AM:
ah yes:
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/health/2009/0217/1224241278308.html
ah yes:
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/health/2009/0217/1224241278308.html
#39 ::: Giacomo ::: (view all by) :::February 20, 2009, 06:25 AM:
Roxanne, I'm sorry but you are wrong on "No medical procedure - and that includes vaccination - should be required by law".
The right of the human race to survive as a whole overrides the right of individuals to be careless. If an epidemic is endangering society as a whole, collective and democratic bodies have the right to impose vaccination. I think this thread made it quite clear.
It's a power which must carefully (and sparely) be used, but it's there. Because otherwise, under extreme circumstances, the mob will purge "individualists" in more cruel ways.
Roxanne, I'm sorry but you are wrong on "No medical procedure - and that includes vaccination - should be required by law".
The right of the human race to survive as a whole overrides the right of individuals to be careless. If an epidemic is endangering society as a whole, collective and democratic bodies have the right to impose vaccination. I think this thread made it quite clear.
It's a power which must carefully (and sparely) be used, but it's there. Because otherwise, under extreme circumstances, the mob will purge "individualists" in more cruel ways.
#40 ::: Pendrift ::: (view all by) :::February 20, 2009, 06:25 AM:
We don't hand out rabies vaccines or smallpox vaccines unless there's a reason to.
It doesn't make much sense to give the general population the rabies vaccine, because of its mode of transmission, i.e. through bites. Obviously people who have frequent contact with animals should receive it. Ditto for smallpox - few people will actually be in a situation where exposure is possible.
The same does not hold true for the highly contagious childhood diseases listed above, where, in many cases, breathing or touching is all it takes to catch the bug - and spread it.
We don't hand out rabies vaccines or smallpox vaccines unless there's a reason to.
It doesn't make much sense to give the general population the rabies vaccine, because of its mode of transmission, i.e. through bites. Obviously people who have frequent contact with animals should receive it. Ditto for smallpox - few people will actually be in a situation where exposure is possible.
The same does not hold true for the highly contagious childhood diseases listed above, where, in many cases, breathing or touching is all it takes to catch the bug - and spread it.
#41 ::: Jim Macdonald ::: (view all by)::: February 20, 2009, 06:30 AM:
Will the reduced chance of a future disease outweigh the chance of complications now?
The answer is "yes."
Will the reduced chance of a future disease outweigh the chance of complications now?
The answer is "yes."
#42 ::: turtle ::: (view all by) :::February 20, 2009, 06:34 AM:
Hmmm... Two questions occurred to me as I was reading this thread...
1. I have a little white scar on my left arm, the circumference of about a pencil eraser or a bit smaller, that my mother told me was from "getting your baby shots". She also has two similar but larger scars, more like the size of a penny each, that she said were from the same thing. I asked about this when I was around five years old and haven't really thought about it until now, but it occurs to me now that the only other people I've seen with these are my sister, aunt, uncle, and one or two of my uncle's friends-- AKA people born after 1960 in the former USSR. (I don't know whether my grandparents have these scars.)
So: what was the difference between USSR and American vaccinations that caused this? We moved here when I was 14 months old, so that rules out only one or two vaccines as specific causes... Was it some kind of additive maybe, or really thick needles???
2. If the chicken pox vaccine was only approved in 1995, that means I had already entered the public school system and had all my required shots at least by the previous year. I am quite sure that I was never vaccinated for it later on... I don't mean to overreact, but how likely am I to get chicken pox as an adult?!
Hmmm... Two questions occurred to me as I was reading this thread...
1. I have a little white scar on my left arm, the circumference of about a pencil eraser or a bit smaller, that my mother told me was from "getting your baby shots". She also has two similar but larger scars, more like the size of a penny each, that she said were from the same thing. I asked about this when I was around five years old and haven't really thought about it until now, but it occurs to me now that the only other people I've seen with these are my sister, aunt, uncle, and one or two of my uncle's friends-- AKA people born after 1960 in the former USSR. (I don't know whether my grandparents have these scars.)
So: what was the difference between USSR and American vaccinations that caused this? We moved here when I was 14 months old, so that rules out only one or two vaccines as specific causes... Was it some kind of additive maybe, or really thick needles???
2. If the chicken pox vaccine was only approved in 1995, that means I had already entered the public school system and had all my required shots at least by the previous year. I am quite sure that I was never vaccinated for it later on... I don't mean to overreact, but how likely am I to get chicken pox as an adult?!
#43 ::: Charlie Stross ::: (view all by) :::February 20, 2009, 06:38 AM:
I missed out on some of my childhood shots; specifically the TB and smallpox jabs that were still on the menu. I had really bad atopic eczema at the time, and the initial TB sensitivity test brought out a strong enough reaction that they decided to skip the vaccination -- and they skipped the smallpox shot at the same time. (It was 1974 or 1975, and by that time the writing was already on the wall for that particular virus: why risk an anaphylactic reaction?)
Weirdly, I managed to contract shingles when I was 13; the left side of my rib cage felt like the worst case of sunburn I'd ever had.
I missed out on some of my childhood shots; specifically the TB and smallpox jabs that were still on the menu. I had really bad atopic eczema at the time, and the initial TB sensitivity test brought out a strong enough reaction that they decided to skip the vaccination -- and they skipped the smallpox shot at the same time. (It was 1974 or 1975, and by that time the writing was already on the wall for that particular virus: why risk an anaphylactic reaction?)
Weirdly, I managed to contract shingles when I was 13; the left side of my rib cage felt like the worst case of sunburn I'd ever had.
#44 ::: Debbie ::: (view all by) :::February 20, 2009, 06:39 AM:
turtle @42 -- I have no idea if the likelihood changes with age, but adults can certainly catch it. My husband got it in his early 30's from our 6-yo nephew, and it was Not. Pleasant.
turtle @42 -- I have no idea if the likelihood changes with age, but adults can certainly catch it. My husband got it in his early 30's from our 6-yo nephew, and it was Not. Pleasant.
#45 ::: turtle ::: (view all by) :::February 20, 2009, 06:48 AM:
Forgot to mention, I was born in 1990, so hopefully the obscure vaccination scars can't be too obscure...
Forgot to mention, I was born in 1990, so hopefully the obscure vaccination scars can't be too obscure...
#46 ::: Juliet E McKenna ::: (view all by)::: February 20, 2009, 06:51 AM:
Chicken pox is definitely worse the older you get. Husband spent his 40th birthday in isolation on intravenous acyclovir in our local infectious diseases hospital after picking it up from our young children. He was going rapidly down the same route as Tracey@28 (Sympathies!)
He caught almost nothing as a kid - only rubella and scarlatina. His brother and cousins had the full set up to and including measles - so our doctor reckoned he would have had sub-clinical exposure sufficient to generate antibodies. Not in the case of that chicken pox.
We're setting about getting him an MMR vaccination coz measles/mumps in his 50s doesn't bear thinking about.
Our kids have had the full set of everything - even bearing in mind my own medical history does raise the possibilities of genuine* complications for them. We looked into all the numbers and details with our GP and concluded the risks of vaccination were still definitely less than the risks of the diseases.
*I'm another huge fan of Ben Goldacre, and want to see Andrew Wakefield prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. Seeing AW in a pillory being pelted with good old medieval midden refuse would suit me too.
Chicken pox is definitely worse the older you get. Husband spent his 40th birthday in isolation on intravenous acyclovir in our local infectious diseases hospital after picking it up from our young children. He was going rapidly down the same route as Tracey@28 (Sympathies!)
He caught almost nothing as a kid - only rubella and scarlatina. His brother and cousins had the full set up to and including measles - so our doctor reckoned he would have had sub-clinical exposure sufficient to generate antibodies. Not in the case of that chicken pox.
We're setting about getting him an MMR vaccination coz measles/mumps in his 50s doesn't bear thinking about.
Our kids have had the full set of everything - even bearing in mind my own medical history does raise the possibilities of genuine* complications for them. We looked into all the numbers and details with our GP and concluded the risks of vaccination were still definitely less than the risks of the diseases.
*I'm another huge fan of Ben Goldacre, and want to see Andrew Wakefield prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. Seeing AW in a pillory being pelted with good old medieval midden refuse would suit me too.
#47 ::: Chris Eagle ::: (view all by) :::February 20, 2009, 06:51 AM:
@40: The only people likely to be exposed to smallpox are workers in a couple of government laboratories, because smallpox isdead. Extinct in the wild for three decades now, thanks to vaccination. Hooray for humanity's one total victory in the fight against disease!
@40: The only people likely to be exposed to smallpox are workers in a couple of government laboratories, because smallpox isdead. Extinct in the wild for three decades now, thanks to vaccination. Hooray for humanity's one total victory in the fight against disease!
#48 ::: Juliet E McKenna ::: (view all by)::: February 20, 2009, 06:53 AM:
By which I mean, our kids have had the full set of jabs.
Reading that back, I see that's not as clear as it might be. Apologies.
By which I mean, our kids have had the full set of jabs.
Reading that back, I see that's not as clear as it might be. Apologies.
#49 ::: Jim Macdonald ::: (view all by)::: February 20, 2009, 06:55 AM:
#42 I have a little white scar on my left arm, the circumference of about a pencil eraser or a bit smaller, that my mother told me was from "getting your baby shots".
Specifically, that's from the smallpox vaccine. I have one of those; so does everyone of my generation or older.
I used to think it was funny, watching sword-and-sandal movies, seeing the Romans gladiators with obvious smallpox vaccination scars.
You used to be able to get little plastic covers at the drug store to go over the blisters that formed from the vaccine blisters.
#42 I have a little white scar on my left arm, the circumference of about a pencil eraser or a bit smaller, that my mother told me was from "getting your baby shots".
Specifically, that's from the smallpox vaccine. I have one of those; so does everyone of my generation or older.
I used to think it was funny, watching sword-and-sandal movies, seeing the Romans gladiators with obvious smallpox vaccination scars.
You used to be able to get little plastic covers at the drug store to go over the blisters that formed from the vaccine blisters.
#50 ::: Laura from Faraway ::: (view all by) ::: February 20, 2009, 06:59 AM:
De-lurking to add that if one might expect to have much contact with people in college, it's a good time to have one's pertussis vaccinations updated. They aren't lifelong, and it's rather frightening to see the rate at which they will sweep through a college community--- we would literally step over people who had collapsed in the hallways because they were too tired to crawl back to their dorm room--- and we were too tired to help them. I've been told anecdotally that one of the hallmarks of a whooping cough outbreak on campus is the denizens half-jokingly referring to it as "the Plague."
De-lurking to add that if one might expect to have much contact with people in college, it's a good time to have one's pertussis vaccinations updated. They aren't lifelong, and it's rather frightening to see the rate at which they will sweep through a college community--- we would literally step over people who had collapsed in the hallways because they were too tired to crawl back to their dorm room--- and we were too tired to help them. I've been told anecdotally that one of the hallmarks of a whooping cough outbreak on campus is the denizens half-jokingly referring to it as "the Plague."
#51 ::: Epacris ::: (view all by) :::February 20, 2009, 07:04 AM:
Roxanne @36 (& Jim D McD @41)
I thought that was the point of the post.
As a child I remember TB vans around suburbs in Australia. Then it all vanished*. Now I hear tuberculosis infections have revived. Is there a summary of what's happened with it over the last 50-100 years?
* Excepting Aboriginal communities, generally ignored.
Roxanne @36 (& Jim D McD @41)
Will the reduced chance of a future disease outweigh the chance of complications now?
The answer is "yes."
I thought that was the point of the post.
As a child I remember TB vans around suburbs in Australia. Then it all vanished*. Now I hear tuberculosis infections have revived. Is there a summary of what's happened with it over the last 50-100 years?
* Excepting Aboriginal communities, generally ignored.
#52 ::: Emily ::: (view all by) :::February 20, 2009, 07:05 AM:
Tetanus booster is every five years.
Sadly, in a lot of areas of the US, you have to fight to get it every 5 years. Often doctors will only give it if they think there's a reason manure might be in the wound... like you ride horses. Processing raw sheep's wool, playing with model airplane engines that get crashed into the ground and are filthy, hiking in remote areas, riding a bicycle off road... all sorts of perfectly normal activities tend to be ones where a 5 year cycle is wiser than not.
But you still get told every 10.
3 years left on mine.
Tetanus booster is every five years.
Sadly, in a lot of areas of the US, you have to fight to get it every 5 years. Often doctors will only give it if they think there's a reason manure might be in the wound... like you ride horses. Processing raw sheep's wool, playing with model airplane engines that get crashed into the ground and are filthy, hiking in remote areas, riding a bicycle off road... all sorts of perfectly normal activities tend to be ones where a 5 year cycle is wiser than not.
But you still get told every 10.
3 years left on mine.
#53 ::: turtle ::: (view all by) :::February 20, 2009, 07:09 AM:
Jim @ #49: Aha! Thank you for resolving this little mystery!
But why did they think smallpox immunizations were still necessary in 1990 if it's been extinct that long?
Laura @ #50: That's a little scary, because something called The Plague is going around campus right now and I have it (along with, well, everyone)... but on the other hand I am not coughing nearly hard enough to break my ribs, and nobody is collapsing in the halls. I rather suspect it's just a bad cold coupled with the worse-than-a-preschool contagiousness of dorm life.
Jim @ #49: Aha! Thank you for resolving this little mystery!
But why did they think smallpox immunizations were still necessary in 1990 if it's been extinct that long?
Laura @ #50: That's a little scary, because something called The Plague is going around campus right now and I have it (along with, well, everyone)... but on the other hand I am not coughing nearly hard enough to break my ribs, and nobody is collapsing in the halls. I rather suspect it's just a bad cold coupled with the worse-than-a-preschool contagiousness of dorm life.
#54 ::: Jim Macdonald ::: (view all by)::: February 20, 2009, 07:24 AM:
But why did they think smallpox immunizations were still necessary in 1990 if it's been extinct that long?
I got my last smallpox vaccination in 2002. It blistered up a little, but not as bad as I remember from the first time around.
As a health-care worker, front line in the War on Terror, this came in the post 9/11 preparedness.
I don't know when routine smallpox vaccination ended. Some time after the last case in the wild was reported.
But why did they think smallpox immunizations were still necessary in 1990 if it's been extinct that long?
I got my last smallpox vaccination in 2002. It blistered up a little, but not as bad as I remember from the first time around.
As a health-care worker, front line in the War on Terror, this came in the post 9/11 preparedness.
I don't know when routine smallpox vaccination ended. Some time after the last case in the wild was reported.
#55 ::: dcb ::: (view all by) ::: February 20, 2009, 07:24 AM:
Tetanus: Every 10 years (UK advice). Used to be recommended every five years, but the advice changed a while back - you might still be given a booster with a very dirty puncture wound if your last booster was more than five years ago.
Vaccines and herd immunity: Those with perfectly healthy, non-allergic children who won't have them vaccinated with MMR or whatever are not only denying protection to their own children but also to those who, for reasons of poor immune status or allergy, cannot be vaccinated. That is selfish, antisocial, dangerous behaviour just as much as getting in a car and driving it on the roads without training.
The whole anti-vaccination think makes me really cross sometimes - such a lack of understanding of science. Measels is on the rise again in the UK at the moment.
I was relatively lucky - I had measles and chickenpox as the "typical" childhood diseases - spots and not feeling so good, but nothing worse, and I had very mild mumps and subclinical rubella (my sister had it and I came up antibody positive when tested). I remember getting the oral polio vaccine on a bit of bread (my mother, a doctor, didn't coddle us with a lump of sugar!). I have the scars from other vaccines - BCG for example.
The memory of polio was still around in my childhood - maybe because my parents were doctors.
Tetanus: Every 10 years (UK advice). Used to be recommended every five years, but the advice changed a while back - you might still be given a booster with a very dirty puncture wound if your last booster was more than five years ago.
Vaccines and herd immunity: Those with perfectly healthy, non-allergic children who won't have them vaccinated with MMR or whatever are not only denying protection to their own children but also to those who, for reasons of poor immune status or allergy, cannot be vaccinated. That is selfish, antisocial, dangerous behaviour just as much as getting in a car and driving it on the roads without training.
The whole anti-vaccination think makes me really cross sometimes - such a lack of understanding of science. Measels is on the rise again in the UK at the moment.
I was relatively lucky - I had measles and chickenpox as the "typical" childhood diseases - spots and not feeling so good, but nothing worse, and I had very mild mumps and subclinical rubella (my sister had it and I came up antibody positive when tested). I remember getting the oral polio vaccine on a bit of bread (my mother, a doctor, didn't coddle us with a lump of sugar!). I have the scars from other vaccines - BCG for example.
The memory of polio was still around in my childhood - maybe because my parents were doctors.
#56 ::: Thomas ::: (view all by) :::February 20, 2009, 07:28 AM:
Jim@49
BCG vaccination (for TB) produces similar scars. I don't think the US did it, but Australia still did in the 1980s.
Epacris@51
TB was wiped out in some places but it always kept creeping in with migration from areas where it was common (which is why immigrants to lots of countries need to get chest x-rays). The problem is that lots of people who get it go into remission and look perfectly healthy until the infection reactivates years later.
There has been a real increase in rates over time, but there has also been a big increase in visibility. The interaction with HIV and the increase in drug resistance has made public-health types much more worried about TB, so there is more news than there used to be.
TB is still almost always treatable, but the second-line drugs aren't very nice and the treatment period is long. Fortunately there are finally some promising new drugs in development.
Incidentally, Larry Niven's story about a time machine and curing Heinlein's TB? A single-dose subcutaneous injection for TB is more plausible than a time machine, but not by a whole lot.
Jim@49
BCG vaccination (for TB) produces similar scars. I don't think the US did it, but Australia still did in the 1980s.
Epacris@51
TB was wiped out in some places but it always kept creeping in with migration from areas where it was common (which is why immigrants to lots of countries need to get chest x-rays). The problem is that lots of people who get it go into remission and look perfectly healthy until the infection reactivates years later.
There has been a real increase in rates over time, but there has also been a big increase in visibility. The interaction with HIV and the increase in drug resistance has made public-health types much more worried about TB, so there is more news than there used to be.
TB is still almost always treatable, but the second-line drugs aren't very nice and the treatment period is long. Fortunately there are finally some promising new drugs in development.
Incidentally, Larry Niven's story about a time machine and curing Heinlein's TB? A single-dose subcutaneous injection for TB is more plausible than a time machine, but not by a whole lot.
#57 ::: Meg Thornton ::: (view all by) :::February 20, 2009, 07:41 AM:
I grew up in a family with a history on both sides of nursing. Both of my grandmothers were nurses, as was my mother, and two of my aunts (my mother's sister, and her sister-in-law). I can remember watching "I Can Jump Puddles" as a child (the story of Alan Marshall, who contracted polio at age six, shortly after starting school) and asking my mother about polio. She'd started her nursing career early enough (late 1950s) to remember the polio wards, and the way she described it made me very glad the disease had been pretty much eradicated by the time I was alive.
Other fun diseases my mother described for me were tetanus (did you know that the reason there used to be all those "quiet, hospital zone" signs on the roads was because one of the things which set off tetanic spasms was loud noise?); tuberculosis (they stopped testing for and immunising against that one while I was in primary school; this worried Mum because of her entire nursing class of about twenty mostly middle class young women, she was one of two people who came up negative for prior exposure to the tuberculosis bug. She thought I should get tested for it just in case); and various varieties of hepatitis (she had Hepatitis A as a teenager; the blood bank had a big black mark on her donor card for years as a result). From her midwifery textbooks (which were all written in about the 1940s) I learned about the effects of a lot of infectious diseases on both pregnant women and unborn children (essentially, if you have a high fever during the first 12 - 16 weeks of pregnancy, you can expect foetal abnormalities as par for the course) as well as the consequences of incompatible Rh factors, and various other bits and pieces.
One thing I've never ever had any problems with is the notion of vaccinations as a Good Thing overall.
Oh, and on the shingles thing - I've had chickenpox as a kid, and shingles as a teenager (would you believe it targeted the nerve just underneath the breast area? At that time I was a D-cup, and there is nothing quite like not being able to wear a bra when you're that size). About the only side effect it had was that the blood bank thought my blood was wonderful - I'd just turned 16, thus becoming eligible to donate, and they leapt at the chance to grab as much of my blood plasma as they could. So, if you have shingles or chicken pox, once you're over them, go see your local blood bank - they will literally think your blood is worth bottling.
I grew up in a family with a history on both sides of nursing. Both of my grandmothers were nurses, as was my mother, and two of my aunts (my mother's sister, and her sister-in-law). I can remember watching "I Can Jump Puddles" as a child (the story of Alan Marshall, who contracted polio at age six, shortly after starting school) and asking my mother about polio. She'd started her nursing career early enough (late 1950s) to remember the polio wards, and the way she described it made me very glad the disease had been pretty much eradicated by the time I was alive.
Other fun diseases my mother described for me were tetanus (did you know that the reason there used to be all those "quiet, hospital zone" signs on the roads was because one of the things which set off tetanic spasms was loud noise?); tuberculosis (they stopped testing for and immunising against that one while I was in primary school; this worried Mum because of her entire nursing class of about twenty mostly middle class young women, she was one of two people who came up negative for prior exposure to the tuberculosis bug. She thought I should get tested for it just in case); and various varieties of hepatitis (she had Hepatitis A as a teenager; the blood bank had a big black mark on her donor card for years as a result). From her midwifery textbooks (which were all written in about the 1940s) I learned about the effects of a lot of infectious diseases on both pregnant women and unborn children (essentially, if you have a high fever during the first 12 - 16 weeks of pregnancy, you can expect foetal abnormalities as par for the course) as well as the consequences of incompatible Rh factors, and various other bits and pieces.
One thing I've never ever had any problems with is the notion of vaccinations as a Good Thing overall.
Oh, and on the shingles thing - I've had chickenpox as a kid, and shingles as a teenager (would you believe it targeted the nerve just underneath the breast area? At that time I was a D-cup, and there is nothing quite like not being able to wear a bra when you're that size). About the only side effect it had was that the blood bank thought my blood was wonderful - I'd just turned 16, thus becoming eligible to donate, and they leapt at the chance to grab as much of my blood plasma as they could. So, if you have shingles or chicken pox, once you're over them, go see your local blood bank - they will literally think your blood is worth bottling.
#58 ::: Ian Osmond ::: (view all by) :::February 20, 2009, 07:51 AM:
Wow. That thing you linked to in the beginning is . . . wow. REAL dumb.
So . . . 50% of tetanus cases were in the unimmunized, therefore tetanus immunizations are pointless.
Yeah, but when 90% of your population is immunized, that means that 50% of them happen in the other 10%, and 50% happen spread out in the OTHER 90%, so that you're 9 times safer if you have the shot.
People are stupid.
Wow. That thing you linked to in the beginning is . . . wow. REAL dumb.
So . . . 50% of tetanus cases were in the unimmunized, therefore tetanus immunizations are pointless.
Yeah, but when 90% of your population is immunized, that means that 50% of them happen in the other 10%, and 50% happen spread out in the OTHER 90%, so that you're 9 times safer if you have the shot.
People are stupid.
#59 ::: Ian Osmond ::: (view all by) :::February 20, 2009, 07:51 AM:
Wow. That thing you linked to in the beginning is . . . wow. REAL dumb.
So . . . 50% of tetanus cases were in the unimmunized, therefore tetanus immunizations are pointless.
Yeah, but when 90% of your population is immunized, that means that 50% of them happen in the other 10%, and 50% happen spread out in the OTHER 90%, so that you're 9 times safer if you have the shot.
People are stupid.
Wow. That thing you linked to in the beginning is . . . wow. REAL dumb.
So . . . 50% of tetanus cases were in the unimmunized, therefore tetanus immunizations are pointless.
Yeah, but when 90% of your population is immunized, that means that 50% of them happen in the other 10%, and 50% happen spread out in the OTHER 90%, so that you're 9 times safer if you have the shot.
People are stupid.
#60 ::: Bruce Cohen (SpeakerToManagers) ::: (view all by) :::February 20, 2009, 08:05 AM:
HPV is a classic case of a disease which could be eradicated relatively quickly given the current vaccine. The reason for wanting to eradicate it as quickly as possible is the link between HPV infection and cervical cancer. Example: the daughter of a friend of ours did not get vaccinated; by the time the vaccine was available she was over 18 and her parents didn't feel it appropriate to suggest it to her; she didn't consider it important, and her health insurance didn't cover it. Then she got HPV from her boyfriend, and not only has a significant likelihood of getting cancer later, but also has sufficient scarring that she's unlikely to be able to conceive a child, should she desire to.
The issue of HPV vaccination has gotten caught up in the culture wars here in the US. Because HPV is sexually-transmitted, the neoconservative zeitgeist for the last 8 years held that giving the vaccine was a tacit recommendation to have sex; you shouldn't give it to a girl under 18, and certainly not to a virgin (both categories being the ones least likely to have been infected before vaccination, and therefore the ones you mostwant to vaccinate). I'm hoping that the general disgust here at the excesses of the Bush era will result in a change in that attitude; we're facing an epidemic of STDs just now, and HPV is definitely among them.
HPV is a classic case of a disease which could be eradicated relatively quickly given the current vaccine. The reason for wanting to eradicate it as quickly as possible is the link between HPV infection and cervical cancer. Example: the daughter of a friend of ours did not get vaccinated; by the time the vaccine was available she was over 18 and her parents didn't feel it appropriate to suggest it to her; she didn't consider it important, and her health insurance didn't cover it. Then she got HPV from her boyfriend, and not only has a significant likelihood of getting cancer later, but also has sufficient scarring that she's unlikely to be able to conceive a child, should she desire to.
The issue of HPV vaccination has gotten caught up in the culture wars here in the US. Because HPV is sexually-transmitted, the neoconservative zeitgeist for the last 8 years held that giving the vaccine was a tacit recommendation to have sex; you shouldn't give it to a girl under 18, and certainly not to a virgin (both categories being the ones least likely to have been infected before vaccination, and therefore the ones you mostwant to vaccinate). I'm hoping that the general disgust here at the excesses of the Bush era will result in a change in that attitude; we're facing an epidemic of STDs just now, and HPV is definitely among them.
#61 ::: TexAnne ::: (view all by) :::February 20, 2009, 08:05 AM:
My mother told me about the way they used to drain swimming pools during polio scares. That impressed me almost as much as finding out why Itzhak Perlman uses crutches.
My mother told me about the way they used to drain swimming pools during polio scares. That impressed me almost as much as finding out why Itzhak Perlman uses crutches.
#62 ::: Fragano Ledgister ::: (view all by) ::: February 20, 2009, 08:12 AM:
I was vaccinated against smallpox as a child, and against measles and rubella (the doctor who immunised me was a kindly old Polish man who gave me boiled sweets). I did catch mumps at ten. I caught chicken pox at 14; my brothers who went to a different school caught measles at the same time (we didn't get boosters, which is why), so we had a miserable couple of months in early 1971.
Because I was in a country undergoing a polio epidemic at the time, I was immunised against polio for the last time in 1982.
Some people in rural Jamaica during that epidemic were, however, suspicious. A rural correspondent for the newspaper for which I worked sent in a report -- which was, alas, spiked -- detailing the suspicions of the government immunisation programme in one rural community. Some men, it seems, believed that the immunisation was an underhanded attempt to sterilise the population, because polio only affected children (so why were adults getting the vaccine?) Their proof of this, as I recall, was 'a decline in their nature' following the administration of the vaccine. The correspondent had determined that the complainers were all 'smokers of grade-A ganja' and had subsequently increased their intake; as a result they had all attained 'stiff erections of the penis'.
I was vaccinated against smallpox as a child, and against measles and rubella (the doctor who immunised me was a kindly old Polish man who gave me boiled sweets). I did catch mumps at ten. I caught chicken pox at 14; my brothers who went to a different school caught measles at the same time (we didn't get boosters, which is why), so we had a miserable couple of months in early 1971.
Because I was in a country undergoing a polio epidemic at the time, I was immunised against polio for the last time in 1982.
Some people in rural Jamaica during that epidemic were, however, suspicious. A rural correspondent for the newspaper for which I worked sent in a report -- which was, alas, spiked -- detailing the suspicions of the government immunisation programme in one rural community. Some men, it seems, believed that the immunisation was an underhanded attempt to sterilise the population, because polio only affected children (so why were adults getting the vaccine?) Their proof of this, as I recall, was 'a decline in their nature' following the administration of the vaccine. The correspondent had determined that the complainers were all 'smokers of grade-A ganja' and had subsequently increased their intake; as a result they had all attained 'stiff erections of the penis'.
#63 ::: Fragano Ledgister ::: (view all by) ::: February 20, 2009, 08:16 AM:
Niall McAuley #30; Calamine lotion. Camomile is taken internally. Calamine lotion, apparently, is a placebo.
Niall McAuley #30; Calamine lotion. Camomile is taken internally. Calamine lotion, apparently, is a placebo.
#64 ::: inge ::: (view all by) ::: February 20, 2009, 08:20 AM:
abi: When I was small, one of the kids in the neighborhood got rubella. The mother threw a rubella party, to which I went. I'm now immune.
My mother said I got rubella twice: Once when I was four, once when I was eleven. So either something is not right here, or having it once does not necessarily confer immunity...
abi: When I was small, one of the kids in the neighborhood got rubella. The mother threw a rubella party, to which I went. I'm now immune.
My mother said I got rubella twice: Once when I was four, once when I was eleven. So either something is not right here, or having it once does not necessarily confer immunity...
#65 ::: Ginger ::: (view all by) :::February 20, 2009, 08:22 AM:
Jim Macdonald @3
Tetanus booster is every ten years. If you have an open wound and your last booster was 5 or more years ago, they will give you another. The vaccine protection has been shown to last as long as 12 years, but no one wants to take any chances when there's a wound with potential. Medline Plus
I am a CRS baby, and escaped with only hearing deficit (as far as I know...). I had mumps as a small child, chicken pox as a teenager (not fun), and mono as a 30-yr old (even less fun). I fall in between the polio generation and the MMR generation; I remember the fear that lingered in the community as polio faded from memory (and have the classic scar on my leg, not shoulder), and I recall very clearly when they started using MMR because I'd already had mumps.
As a veterinarian, I'm up to date on my tetanus and rabies. My last tetanus booster gave me a lovely case of vaccine reaction (fever a week after), but that's far better than having to deal with the toxin. I get my flu vaccine every year, as well; it's my small contribution to herd health.
Jim Macdonald @3
Tetanus booster is every ten years. If you have an open wound and your last booster was 5 or more years ago, they will give you another. The vaccine protection has been shown to last as long as 12 years, but no one wants to take any chances when there's a wound with potential. Medline Plus
I am a CRS baby, and escaped with only hearing deficit (as far as I know...). I had mumps as a small child, chicken pox as a teenager (not fun), and mono as a 30-yr old (even less fun). I fall in between the polio generation and the MMR generation; I remember the fear that lingered in the community as polio faded from memory (and have the classic scar on my leg, not shoulder), and I recall very clearly when they started using MMR because I'd already had mumps.
As a veterinarian, I'm up to date on my tetanus and rabies. My last tetanus booster gave me a lovely case of vaccine reaction (fever a week after), but that's far better than having to deal with the toxin. I get my flu vaccine every year, as well; it's my small contribution to herd health.
#66 ::: missmeg426 ::: (view all by) :::February 20, 2009, 08:25 AM:
I feel lucky that I was a child of the early 80's, because the whole MMR = autism thing hadn't come around yet, so I had the privilege of going to schools, daycares, and other places where every child was immunized, because the idea of not taking a kid to get their shots was unthinkable.
Let me tell you, living in a world where I didn't even know what measles, mumps, or rubella were because nobody got them? Was really nice.
Of course, we all got the chicken pox and I wish there'd been a vaccine for that back then, because if there had, at least it would have been in an era when parents would've had the common sense to make sure their kids got it. Seriously, I can't imagine a parent back then who - if for nothing else than not wanting to stay home with a miserable, sick kid - would not have marched their child right down to the doctor/Health Department and had it done the minute it became available.
Heck, I almost got disenrolled from high school just because I was a week late getting my booster shots (the ones you have to get around senior year, don't know if it's just TN law or other states have) from the Health Department because of scheduling problems.
It's too bad there's no legally acceptable way to prove where and from whom a child contracted a disease, because if there was, I would suggest suing the pants off of any family that didn't vaccinate their kids and caused another child to get sick.
But I also had a teacher in school who, because of polio, had an arm that was deformed and atrophied that she couldn't use and I've never forgotten that teacher.
I'm sure she'd have some choice words for any parent idiotic enough not to get their kids immunized.
I'm reminded of the episode of House where Dr. House tells the mother who doesn't want to vaccinate her kid exactly what happens when you don't. The "teeny tiny baby coffins" comment was just lovely.
I vote we have Dr. House go talk to these folks.
I feel lucky that I was a child of the early 80's, because the whole MMR = autism thing hadn't come around yet, so I had the privilege of going to schools, daycares, and other places where every child was immunized, because the idea of not taking a kid to get their shots was unthinkable.
Let me tell you, living in a world where I didn't even know what measles, mumps, or rubella were because nobody got them? Was really nice.
Of course, we all got the chicken pox and I wish there'd been a vaccine for that back then, because if there had, at least it would have been in an era when parents would've had the common sense to make sure their kids got it. Seriously, I can't imagine a parent back then who - if for nothing else than not wanting to stay home with a miserable, sick kid - would not have marched their child right down to the doctor/Health Department and had it done the minute it became available.
Heck, I almost got disenrolled from high school just because I was a week late getting my booster shots (the ones you have to get around senior year, don't know if it's just TN law or other states have) from the Health Department because of scheduling problems.
It's too bad there's no legally acceptable way to prove where and from whom a child contracted a disease, because if there was, I would suggest suing the pants off of any family that didn't vaccinate their kids and caused another child to get sick.
But I also had a teacher in school who, because of polio, had an arm that was deformed and atrophied that she couldn't use and I've never forgotten that teacher.
I'm sure she'd have some choice words for any parent idiotic enough not to get their kids immunized.
I'm reminded of the episode of House where Dr. House tells the mother who doesn't want to vaccinate her kid exactly what happens when you don't. The "teeny tiny baby coffins" comment was just lovely.
I vote we have Dr. House go talk to these folks.
I'm from the same generation as Elizabeth Moon; I remember the polio scares and the pictures of kids in iron lungs, and I had one classmate in elementary school who had braces on both legs. I also remember how stories about polio disappeared from casual conversation and the newspaper within a few years of general distribution of the Salk vaccine. It's not a good thing to forget so easily, sometimes.
For that matter, because I antedate some of the vaccines, I got measles, chicken pox, and mumps as a child. They are not fun even then, and the long-term possibility of shingles is scary: my mother-in-law was in severe pain for some time before being diagnosed with a case of shingles affecting a nerve next to the central line they'd put in when she had a heart attack.
As Jim points out, several of the childhood diseases can cause serious congenital defects if contracted during pregnancy. My mother had rubella when she was about 5 months pregnant with me; this is out at the end of the window of danger, which is probably why I don't have severe damage from it; my hearing nerve loss may or may not be the result of the rubella. Now there's a vaccine for rubella, but because the only real danger is to fetuses, and the illness is often asymptomatic, it's a prime candidate for a resurgence of the disease due to apathy about inoculations.